Kirk Cameron: “Am I ever going to hear the message that will save my soul from Hell?R
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, June 20, 2007
- Viewed 175
- (83) comments so far
Will you ever tell me the truth clearly enough so that I realize that my sin has made me an enemy of God: that I am currently on the path that leads to destruction, with the wrath of God dwelling upon me, and that unless I repent and put my faith in the Savior, I will perish? Or have you decided that it’s better to simply entertain me, and on Sundays I can come to have my “felt needs” met with good music and good advice? Pastor, while I would appreciate that, it’s the ultimate betrayal of my trust in you if you don’t tell me the truth. Will I ever hear the words “repent,” “surrender,” “turn to the Savior,” “be born again”? If you don’t tell me those things, how will I ever know to do it? Please don’t leave it up to the Wednesday night small-group leader. They’re taking their cues from you. You’re leading the flock.
And now I speak to you as a Christian. If you and I fail to teach the whole counsel of God, and we don’t warn sinners to flee from the wrath to come, and run to the love of Christ on the Cross to save their soul, we make a terrible mistake. It doesn’t matter how happy a person is- how much a sinner is enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season- without the righteousness of Christ, he’ll perish on the Day of Judgment. The Bible says, “Riches profit not on the Day of Wrath, but righteousness delivers from death.” You see, that’s how Kirk Cameron realized he needed a Savior. I had riches, but I knew that it was the righteousness of God that I needed in order to be saved from my sin.
Any thoughts?
HT: Alpha and Omega
Growing Pains star Kirk Cameron recently addressed the SBC pastors convention via video... here is part of his presentation: Can I speak to you from my heart for a moment? I realize that, theologically, I’m not worthy to wash your socks. But imagine this scenario with me, if you will: Imagine I’m a “seeker”- I’m a non-Christian, sitting in your church week after week after week listening to you. Am I ever going to hear the message that will save my soul from Hell?
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Leonard on Thu, June 21, 2007
Daniel, I appreciate your understanding of your belief and the way you express it. Thanks! I would not go as far as you in some thoughts in regards to the statement, “I would suggest that the more biblical paradigm is not to make Jesus ‘my’ or ‘your’ Lord and Savior, but rather to proclaim that Jesus is Lord (whether we choose to acknowledge him or not) and Savior, and that he demands everyone’s allegiance (though in the short run, his purposes are carried forward by the Church).”
If I misunderstand your thinking please forgive me, but the personal nature of our friendship with Christ cannot be overlooked in scripture. For example, “what must I do to be saved… is a question that is asked by people. Love the Lord YOUR God is a very personal was of describing the greatest commandment ever. Peter’s response to Jesus in John 6 when he asked if they would leave… “Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”” This too indicates a very personal nature to salvation. IMO is is very biblical to make Jesus my Lord and savior. It is true eventually every knew will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord but it is also true that right now, they don’t. The Lordship of Christ from a positional perspective was never in doubt since before the foundations of the world the lamb was slain. From a practice perspective the Lordship of Christ is not close to being practiced by over 4 billion people.
I agree it is not the prayer that is saves, but the surrender of the will. But the prayer for millions upon millions is the entry. Sort of like the speaking of vows do not make your marriage great, but married people love being married when the vows are kept.
IMO on reason we get our panties in such a wad about the gospel message has to do with our understanding of making disciples. We think getting people to say a prayer is making a disciple but in reality making a disciple is a much longer process. Saying a prayer in my mind is about recruiting disciples. The reality is that in many countries of the world, (I have been there) the understanding of this is more clear because of the cost of starting the journey. TAFN
Daniel on Thu, June 21, 2007
Thanks for your input Leonard. As long as people realize the point is discipleship and not magic, I’m fine with traditional formulations. As I’m sure you’d agree, it’s a simple question of emphasis. Some people emphasize the process too much (as if being baptized into the faith didn’t hinge upon a decision), whereas others emphasize the decision too much (as if praying the prayer was the end of the road). I’m sure we’ll both agree balance is the key. You make a vow, then you keep it.
Cheers,
-Daniel-
Tony Myles on Sat, June 23, 2007
I’d like to help Kirk, but “first there’s this skit that our wacky drama team put together” and “then I have a video I want to show you.”
C Fontenot on Sat, June 23, 2007
I would be curious to know if Wendi, Peter, and Daniel would also disapprove of the message that Paul, Peter, John, Philip, John the Baptist, Barnabus, etc. preached as they took on the task of spreading the COMPLETE Gospel message to the world? The Biblical message of sin righteousness and judgment to come and the salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone is still a relevant message today. Unfortunately there are too many pastors that want to boast of the size of their church as a measure of the success of their calling that they take out the parts that offend most so-called “seekers”.
The most loving thing we can do is to tell them there is a hell (and it is what we deserve) as well as a heaven…there is sin as well as righteousness….there is grace as well as judgment. But if we make people feel uncomfortable, they might not come back which means less money in the kitty each Sunday.
Wendi,
The Bible says that God has chosen the foolishness of the message preached to save those who would believe. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws their heart and He uses His Gospel message to save the lost. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is an intergral part of that salvation but so is the message preached.
Tony Myles on Sat, June 23, 2007
Then there’s that whole clanging cymbal thing in 1 Corinthians where a sense that we love someone matters more than anything we say, even if it is truth.
Peter Hamm on Sun, June 24, 2007
C Fontenot,
HAPPY Sunday!
I would argue strongly that Paul, Peter, John, Philip, John the Baptist, Barnabas, and the rest did a GREAT job of presenting the gospel in context in different places. I don’t believe anyone here has ever said that the whole Gospel shouldn’t be presented in order to make sure we have plenty of people coming back and giving next Sunday. (For the record, in our church, we specifically ask that guests do NOT give in our offering. Usually TWICE during the service.) The one thing we have said is that every presentation of th Gospel might not look the exact same.
My continued concern with folks like WOTM is that they seem to assume that every presentation of the Gospel is made in the same manner (or it’s not genuine and therefore salvation can’t occur), when Paul (and the others) varied his approach quite a bit. He was loving and sensitive to the culture he spoke to. I often find that the WOTM folks are not.
The most loving thing we can do, actually, imho, is to practice and model patience and kindness, and all the rest of that fun stuff from 1Cor 13. The MOST excellent way…
Melody on Sun, June 24, 2007
I think that allowing someone to stand on the tracks while a train is bearing down on them isn’t very loving. Certainly you don’t say something abusive or insulting to them, but a decent human being at the very least least calls out, “Hey you! There’s a train coming! You need to get off those tracks!”
Peter Hamm on Sun, June 24, 2007
Melody,
What if you knew for a fact (or at least were nearly certain) that yelling “Hey There’s a train coming!” was an ineffective way to get the person to move (even though at one time it had been very effective), but knew for a fact that if you got to know the person, became friends, doing life together, would more possibly result in the person leaving the tracks…
I weary of the idea that spreading the gospel only consists of saving people from hell when they die. It’s a very incomplete way of telling people what Christ has done and what it means, and it has become more and more apparent to me that people are looking for more than that, and Christ has SO MUCH more to offer…
MG on Sun, June 24, 2007
Peter said: “He was loving and sensitive to the culture he spoke to.” Speaking of Paul, really? Sensitive to the culture? I think we ought to define what we mean by “sensitive” because some might think that he didn’t preach an offensive message to them if you say that he was “sensitive” to their culture. The fact that he knew much of the beliefs of the groups he preached to in no way should be interpreted as he was not offensive in his message, I mean come on Peter the gospel message is in itself a wholly offensive message if it is accurately presented to the natural man, any other assumption or presumption is to describe what isn’t and say that it is. There are many who say they haven’t changed the message when they completely have. They no longer talk any about repentance when it says in 2 Peter 3:9 that God is not willing than any (of the elect mind you) should perish but that all would come to repentance - yet many pastors don’t deem it necessary to elaborate on what exactly repentance is. So long as people are sorry that they’ve sinned and recognize they are sinners, this is enough, NO IT IS NOT! Worldly sorrow leads to death whereas godly sorrow leads to what? Repentance, not to be repented of (2 Cor 7:8-11). Paul caused such a great sorrow among the Corinthian church that they saw how they had offended God, (which is what an unregenerate man, woman or child consistently does), and because of that they experienced godly sorrow which brought repentance and salvation to them in which Paul was then joyful.
But Peter the current trend in American churches, claiming evangelical leanings, is to so water down the message of the gospel that even the sinful unregenerate adulterer or thief would not feel convicted under what passes for “preaching” or “evangelizing” today.
As to your question to Melody, Peter, - that is to assume the unassumable - no one knows on whom God will bestow the gift of faith, (Eph 2:8) that is why the argument that a Calvinist is not an evangelism minded soul when the truth is quite the opposite and church history bears that out. C.H. Spurgeon was 100% Calvinist and it is highly unlikely that there is living now a more committed evangelist than he was - the originator of the mega-church (From the Spurgeon Archive: The congregation quickly outgrew their building, moved to Exeter Hall, then to Surrey Music Hall. In these venues Spurgeon frequently preached to audiences numbering more than 10,000—all in the days before electronic amplification.)
Have you ever read the sermons Charles Spurgeon preached? Remarkably true to God’s word and God blessed his efforts tremendously in a time when even Charles was seeing a great falling away from the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (See the Down-Grade Controversy http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/dwngrd.htm)
And we have many “leaders”, teaching many other “leaders” that they must modify their services and yes their messages (don’t make it too intense or too long as you’ll scare away the “seeker”) to meet the culture where they are at and not drive many away? What god is that? Whom one would think could not penetrate the heart of the “cultural addict” and conform them to the image of His Son as He has promised to those who come to Him under His terms, by His grace and the Father’s call? Jesus asked “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46)
Kirk is to be commended for his message and leaders should take note to what he has said because they are to be judged not only for their own life but the lives of those who sat under their teaching they will also be held to account for, to what degree I am not sure but that is for God to know and us to understand in glory . How well they taught will be examined by God Almighty, a fact that causes me to tremble at the thought and consider with great reservation before I would enter a pulpit and deliver a message to the Children of God. Church leaders would do well to observe what is revealed about what God will bless in Is. 66:2 which simply says the following:
“For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the LORD
“But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, <u>and who trembles at My word.</u>
One important question: The beginning of wisdom and also the beginning of knowledge is what?The fear of the Lord. Yet who could be fearful with much of what passes as a gospel presentation today, what with all the God has a wonderful plan for your life/Jesus loves you, messengers running around and leading churches? Food for thought.
C Fontenot and Melody - wonderful thoughts.
Peter, finally, Jesus loved the rich young ruler and then proceeded to tell him that which would send him away sad for had much wealth to eternal Hell for all we know about him, was that the wrong thing for Jesus to do? (Mark 10:21, 22 NASB says: <i> Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But at these words <u>he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.</u>
In Mercy and Grace….
Mark Broadbent on Sun, June 24, 2007
What do people think of Bill Hybels approach???
He often communicates to people’s felt-needs. He is very seeker-sensitive. But he is also wiling to be direct when he has to be. He also is very much willing to talk about being rescued from Hell.
Think about it… What happens when we become a christian…
#1 We get the Holy Spirit who gives us…
> an intimate relationship with God
> comfort
> guidance
> the power to overcome sin/addiction etc
#2 We get our sin paid for, meaning that we have…
> peace with God
> freedom from guilt and shame
> forgiveness of sins
> escape from the coming wrath
> eternal life with God in heaven
Why can’t we talk about all of this???
Mark Broadbent on Sun, June 24, 2007
This is from Ed Stetzer…
Ed Stetzer (http://www.namb.net/site/c.9qKILUOzEpH/b.1758213/apps/s/content.asp?ct=2751833)
The standard evangelistic approach for several decades has begun with the question, “If you were to die today do you know for sure you would go to heaven?” I must confess, I typically do not use this approach because I have assumed that there are few people outside of hospital beds or foxholes actually asking the question. My assumption was that our survey would prove that to be the case. I was wrong.
Many people are wondering about their eternal destiny…
# One of every 5 respondents said they wonder daily about the certainty of going to heaven.
# Another 13 percent think about this weekly, 12 percent monthly, and 9 percent annually.
# Only 44 percent, 4 out of 9, said they never wonder about this.
Al on Sun, June 24, 2007
The message of Jesus from the beginning of his ministry was:
...“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17 (NASB)
it still has to be the message today.
Wendi on Sun, June 24, 2007
C Fontenot,
Not sure what I said that prompted you to reply about God using the foolishness of men or faith coming by hearing . . . of course I agree with those comments.
To you and Melody and others who seem to think that unless every sermon contains the sentence “you are a sinner and going straight to hell when you die unless you repent,” then the work of a church or faith community or pastor cannot possibly be anointed or affirmed by God . . . . well I know otherwise for a fact . . . because I’ve been part of such a faith community where there is plentiful fruit represented by fully repentant people who have received and are now passing along grace.
Since the evidence (according to scripture) is in the fruit, I’ll stick with the method I’ve found to be fruitful. I tried your method in another life (I’m a recovering fundamentalist), and it wasn’t fruitful.
Thanks - Wendi
Peter Hamm on Sun, June 24, 2007
I never said the gospel message wasn’t offensive. We on this “seeker sensitive” boat have never said many of the words that are placed in our mouths.
I only implied we need not be offensive for the sake of being offensive. That we need not seek out the opportunity to be “offensive” but rather, the opportunity to share Christ’s good news. Paul tailored his presentation of the Gospel to each audience he addressed. So did Jesus… he told stories they’d relate to. They were culturally sensitive.
It seems like people on the more “fundamentalist side” (Sorry… can’t think of another word…) seem to want to say you can either minister to real or felt needs OR you can preach the gospel.
Some of us are saying you must do both. Some find that position untenable. I find it mandated by scripture.
And MG, my question was quite valid. I know and interact with too many people (especially young people) for whom the kind of Gospel presentation that WOTM prescribes as the only valid kind is ineffective and does not communicate the Gospel effectively.
Okay, back to sleep…
Jim Lykins on Mon, June 25, 2007
Not only is Kirk telling the “ gospel “ truth, but he is engaging the so - called “ seeker “ on what the christian faith stands for opposed to your big- named preachers ( you may or may not know who you are - the bible states the foolish have been blinded ) who will make your senses feel so good you’ll wish “ church “ was every day!
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