Kirk Cameron: “Am I ever going to hear the message that will save my soul from Hell?R
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, June 20, 2007
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- (83) comments so far
Will you ever tell me the truth clearly enough so that I realize that my sin has made me an enemy of God: that I am currently on the path that leads to destruction, with the wrath of God dwelling upon me, and that unless I repent and put my faith in the Savior, I will perish? Or have you decided that it’s better to simply entertain me, and on Sundays I can come to have my “felt needs” met with good music and good advice? Pastor, while I would appreciate that, it’s the ultimate betrayal of my trust in you if you don’t tell me the truth. Will I ever hear the words “repent,” “surrender,” “turn to the Savior,” “be born again”? If you don’t tell me those things, how will I ever know to do it? Please don’t leave it up to the Wednesday night small-group leader. They’re taking their cues from you. You’re leading the flock.
And now I speak to you as a Christian. If you and I fail to teach the whole counsel of God, and we don’t warn sinners to flee from the wrath to come, and run to the love of Christ on the Cross to save their soul, we make a terrible mistake. It doesn’t matter how happy a person is- how much a sinner is enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season- without the righteousness of Christ, he’ll perish on the Day of Judgment. The Bible says, “Riches profit not on the Day of Wrath, but righteousness delivers from death.” You see, that’s how Kirk Cameron realized he needed a Savior. I had riches, but I knew that it was the righteousness of God that I needed in order to be saved from my sin.
Any thoughts?
HT: Alpha and Omega
Growing Pains star Kirk Cameron recently addressed the SBC pastors convention via video... here is part of his presentation: Can I speak to you from my heart for a moment? I realize that, theologically, I’m not worthy to wash your socks. But imagine this scenario with me, if you will: Imagine I’m a “seeker”- I’m a non-Christian, sitting in your church week after week after week listening to you. Am I ever going to hear the message that will save my soul from Hell?
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JWS on Mon, June 25, 2007
Kirk, you are right on target. I’m fed up with hearing simple “feel good” messages and nothing about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. I would hate to have to answer God as a pastor when called to explain the dribble I “preached” to my congregation week after week and never telling the simple steps to salvation from a sinner’s hell.
I heard Dr Mac Brunson from his pulpit at the First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, FL, say the following statement:
Life, death and eternity and worlds unknown may hang on the preaching and hearing of one sermon.
You said it, brother Mac, and God bless you for taking a courageous stand and preaching the uncompromised saving Gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Phil DiLernia on Mon, June 25, 2007
Wow ... who ever thought that little “Seaver” would cause so much commotion. When I watched the show I was anything but a follower of Christ and now God has blessed me with a full time pastorate. How awesome is He?
I was saved at a BG Crusade, 1992, and I do believe that we can meet people’s felt needs and preach the Gospel simultaneously - since the felt need they are most desperate for is to have their original intended relationship with God restored. They may be “feeling that need” through various other avenues and it’s up to us to let them know that;
- God created them
- God knows them
- Yet He still loves them!
- Jesus paid the price so we can be a new creation and have all guilt and shame removed
- We just need to accept our need for forgiveness and God’s willingness, love, goodness, and character which stands always ready to forgive
The Gospel really is GOOD NEWS indeed!
MG on Mon, June 25, 2007
Peter,
It is nice to know you have some disdain for words being put in your mouth, now take that feeling and allow it to guide you to stop doing that to others for you are quite proficient at it.
Now to the matter at hand, what is it that a lost person needs Peter? Wendi? Mark?
They need to be “born again”, not to have their felt needs met in the hopes that they might somehow entertain the thought of asking Jesus to come into their heart since He’s at the door knocking, begging them to allow Him, the King of kings and Lord of lords, to come in and make their life run smoother. How does a church come to the belief that felt-needs are to be used to “draw men” to the Lord, when men are described by such clearly hopeless conditions as slaves to unrighteousness (who become slave to righteousness by the grace and mercy of God), blind (by the god of this world) or dead in trespasses and sins (dead men cannot resuscitate themselves and haven’t the ability to respond but must be regenerated by Almighty God, a process that is clearly laid out in Eph. 1 and 2).
The real shame of all this discussion is all the “leaders” going around touting numbers and blessings of God who are consistently seeing revolving numbers of people flowing in and out of their churches with some sticking around and participating in what’s going on, but many if not most of them having little or no clear evidence that the Creator God has become a major influence in their life. When pastors claim a song by U2 led people to the Lord, and go out and post in the blogosphere the numbers they can claim weekly, when the fact is no one has the authority to declare someone saved but the Holy Spirit is the only One laid out in Scripture with the responsibility to do such a thing.
2 Cor. 5 calls those who are “in Christ” new creatures, which would indicate a radical transformation in their life from one of hatred towards God to one of loving God, one who hates commandments and commands and now embraces them with a transformed perspective recognizing as Jesus said, “His yoke is easy and His burden is light”, obedience IS better than sacrifice and to follow God’s commands leads to a life of greater peace and joy vs. the weightiness of dealing with sins destructive forces, a radically different view of God’s word - once having no concern for it the new heart has a willingness to submit to God’s word and know it having a desire to better know the One in Whom they now believe and to Whom they now serve.
1 John lays out a pretty detailed account of what would be the characteristics of a genuine Believer that we may know that we have eternal life, yet there are many who dismiss out of hand the purpose and the intent of this invaluable epistle from John.
As Believers we are called by Paul to “examine ourselves” to see if we are in the faith. What Kirk has done is simply to call the pastors to examine their efforts to see if they do honor God or if they have modified their methods to honor man at the expense of a Sovereign, Just and Holy God who will hold teachers accountable for what they teach and whom they influence.
And Peter to your final comment about those whom you know who say the WOTM gospel is ineffective, 1 Cor. 1:17, 18 says For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The fact that you know some who say that only shows, well it really shows us nothing that would lead you to believe a watered down, softened message is going to be of greater effectiveness than the truth from God’s word.
There will come a day when judgment will come for all, blessed are those who heed God’s gracious warning in His most Holy word.
Glen on Mon, June 25, 2007
Praise God that Kirk had the courage to address a critical issue within the seeker-sensitive and emerging/emergent church movement. We have churches full of people who comfortably enjoy the music, like the drama, and find practical relevance to the teachings ....YET remain unsaved and feel no compulsion or conviction to repent and put their trust fully in Christ Why? Because they have never really heard a full presentation of the gospel message….and are getting candy coated sermons thatmore self-help psychology than biblical truth. Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that does the convicting, however the means by which He does it is through the Word of God preached plainly and powerfully. We have become “ashamed of the gospel” (Rom. 1:8) and feel it needs dressing up with all sorts of media driven technology. Kirk hit the nail on the head. May his tribe increase!!!
Phil DiLernia on Tue, June 26, 2007
I’ve got to say that the tone of this discussion is turning sour.
Let me give my little perspective on the “old” vs. “new” methods of preaching the gospel. I’m 48 years old, saved for the past 15. If the older communication tools and nuancing of words wo so special why do we have church after church filled with people who claim the Lord as their Savior for the past 40-60 years spending more time in gossip than reaching their lost neighbors? Why do we have church after church who really believe that the Great Commission is fulfilled if they give money to overseas missions while their communities rot away? Why do we have church after church filled with such a lack of love for one another? Why do we have church after church filled with those who grasp onto God’s money as if it’s their own and give such a small portion of God’s money back to Him for His work? Why do we have church after church filled with people who cannot seem to forgive one another and rather “kill” one another with words than truly see the “plank” in their own eyes?
Why is the church in this country so ineffective at reaching out to their communities if the generations “saved” under the gospel preached in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s was so “right?”
If this “real” salvation experience is what some want to go back to I say that it is God Himself who is asking His church to re-consider what it is to be saved. It is God Himself who has brought us a post-Christian generation so finally we can stop fooling ourselves about who is saved and who isn’t. The old church culture of America is DEAD and maybe that’s a good thing if it produced the lazy (and self-righteous) believers that it did.
Maybe God is going to have His church reduced in size but the lesson may be that a small “genuine” church will outstrip, outevangelize, outbless, and generally outserve a larger bloated self-righteous and false one. If the “old” methods produced the church of America today that I say “Amen” to those moving in what I consider to be a more biblical and Godly direction.
MG on Tue, June 26, 2007
Phil - testimonials and/or experiences do not make Truth - God’s word is Truth.
If you are looking for the answer for the last 40-60 years of concerns you mentioned you might want to look back say about 100+ years to the ministry of Finney and his influence on Christianity with the altar call and proclaiming people saved because they made a “decision”.
Many pastors are declaring goats to be sheep and expecting them to act like sheep when in fact they have never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. A review of “methodology” from a ministry like Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon or George Whitefield compared to today, by the grace of God, should reveal to you the answer. But by the grace of God alone does this wisdom come.
And you might want to reconsider your comments about “old style” churches being dead, there are numerous examples from which to disprove that claim, among others Grace Community in Sun Valley, CA, First Baptist of Muscle Shoals, AL, Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington D.C., to name just a few.
A book worthy of reading by any leader today
http://www.sovereigngracestore.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=B3615-00-11
Mercy and grace…
Peter Hamm on Tue, June 26, 2007
MG,
I am pretty sure (I am SUPER-careful with my wording) that I put now owrds in anyone’s mouth.
One thing… They will know we are his followers because of our great love for one another… Ministering to “felt needs” is an EXCELLENT way of showing we are His followers.
Your paragraph that begins “The real shame of all this discussion is…” is a little generalized. It sure doesn’t describe my church.
Peter Hamm on Tue, June 26, 2007
Oh, one more thing
MG wrote [And you might want to reconsider your comments about “old style” churches being dead…] You might want to reconsider your general comments about “new style” churches, too… http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif I suspect that most of the church methodologies of the decades Phil described were rife with consumeristic “if-i’m-in-the-building-I-must-be-saved” thinking as much as some newer churches can be. At least newer churches are recognizing as a VERY high value the priesthood of all believers. It’s being re-re-discovered… again…
Wendi on Tue, June 26, 2007
Phil is right . . . this discussion is deteriorating.
MG – your comments to Peter are both uncalled for and off base. If you read through just a few of the discussions of which he’s been a part, and you’ll see that Peter is one of the few of us who is really good at NOT doing that.
JWS . . . if life, death, eternity and worlds unknown hang on the preaching and hearing of one sermon, why did it take God incarnate three years of preaching sermons to get His point across (and they still had a low “get-it” factor)?
The real shame is actually this comment by MG . . .
“The real shame of all this discussion is ALL the “leaders” going around touting numbers and blessings of God who are CONSISTENTLY seeing revolving numbers of people flowing in and out of their churches with some sticking around and participating in what’s going on, but many if not MOST of them having little or no clear evidence that the Creator God has become a major influence in their life.”
With all due respect, you have no way of knowing this, and for that reason it is arrogant and just plain wrong (sinful) for you to accuse in this way. It is divisive to the unity of the universal body of Christ. How many one-on-one, heart-to-heart discussions have you had with people who got saved the seeker churches you are so good at criticizing? Until you’ve talked deeply with MOST of the people who make up numbers of people reached by these churches, you have no right to claim that MOST of them have “no clear evidence of influence by the Creator God.”
This is what bugs me the most about this discussion and those of you who bash the seeker, post-modern, emerging church folks. You criticize people you’ve never met, for the books they wrote that you’ve never read, or preaching sermons you’ve never heard, accusing them of developing shallow Christians – though you’ve never spoken to one of their members about their faith. You have neither the right nor the information needed to say what you say . . . yet you go on saying it.
Got to get off that soap box now, I’m getting mad at my own self.
Wendi
Phil DiLernia on Tue, June 26, 2007
Hi MG
Your responses to me are sort of all over the place.
We agree when you say “If you are looking for the answer for the last 40-60 years of concerns you mentioned you might want to look back say about 100+ years to the ministry of Finney and his influence on Christianity with the altar call and proclaiming people saved because they made a “decision”. Many pastors are declaring goats to be sheep and expecting them to act like sheep when in fact they have never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.”
Then you defend the “old” church model by naming a couple of churches. Now how’s about naming the 100,000 churches who refuse to accept the new wine that Christ wants poured in and are dying on the vine (pun intended.)
Jesus said it best: “And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’”
How sad of a commentary about the stubborness and foolishness of our hearts to think that yesterday is the only way. In Ezra, when the temple was being rebuilt there were some who rejoiced so loud in praise of God and yet the older people who remembered the old temple wept so loud (because they remember the old temple) that you couldn’t tell the difference between the praising and the weeping.
It’s amazing that we think the Bible stops at Revelation and while we mouth the words and say we believe in Jesus and every word that He said we must really believe that He only meant to criticize the Pharisees and not the church in America today. Hence, churches on every corner and yet the impact is so minimal on our communities - compared to what could be if we would become “followers” or “doers” or “missionaries” or “proclaimers of the Kingdom of God” rather than criticizers of others who may do things differently than we do.
Stop it.
Leonard on Tue, June 26, 2007
The bible is filled with testimonials of people’s experiences. Testimonials and experiences are not opponents of truth. Over 400,000 churches in this country and over half will not lead anyone to Christ. These are not seeker churches; they are not emergent churches they are simply churches who have forgotten to invite people to the feast. Of the ones that do lead someone to Christ, it averages 1 per 100 in attendance. The average church is less than 100 people so you do the math. This is not about style or content of presentation it is about a lack of presentation. WOTM, 4 laws, steps to peace, three story… The bottom line is not our style or method. It is the simple fact we don’t do everything possible to reach people for Christ.
Instead we debate if Jesus talked about hell, is it a real place, did he talk about heaven, is the gospel the whole story of creation to restoration, should we light candles and burn incense or sing hymns. Screwtape could not have scripted some of our conversations much better.
I am not referring specifically to MMI but to the church as a whole. I believe in truth, God’s truth as found in the word. It is also my conviction we dishonor the truth when we use it to make ourselves or our methods superior to others and their methods. Satan has the largest youth ministry in everyone of our cities, he has the larges congregation in everyone of our cities. He is the enemy, let’s go fight him.
Sorry for the soapbox, but this is my passion and Phil you are right on the money.
Glen on Tue, June 26, 2007
I think this conversation has turned into a war of words than actually commenting on what Kirk said. The real questions is whether there is any validity to what he is saying. Instead of trying to defend old or new styles in ministry, maybe we should ask the simple question of whether Kirk has hit on raw nerve that needs to be addressed today or not. i.e.- is the gospel being preached accurately and fully to the lost or are we too afraid to offend to actually give the kind of gospel presentation that he speaks of? Let’s put aside all the straw man arguments and false dichotomys and just evaluate whether we are preaching a gospel in the church (whatever particular philosophy of ministry you have) that is accurate. Do we balance grace and truth, heaven and hell, love and judgment properly or is the church today riding precitiously close to the edge of being so culturally relevant that we have lost our “saltiness?” Are we so interested in gathering a big crowd, that we would never want to do or say anything that might be offensive to an unbeliever. I think that is at the heart of the issue and whether you like what Kirk has said or not, I believe the concern is a valid one.
I drive by a very culturally relevant seeker-centered church week by week that has signs up on it’s buildings with it’s latest teaching series (usually spoof on a recent TV mini-series or movie). We have people at this church regularly show up at ours saying that they feel the teaching is too watered down, lacking substance and are desiring more from the Word. The worship is loud and raucous, the facilities are nice…but the teaching is lacking depth, clarity and true relevance to their spiritual condition. I think that is sad, because this church is 15 miles closer to them, but they are willing to drive up to our smaller church for better teaching. Something seems amiss here. The charge that Paul gave to Timothy was to “PREACH THE WORD” but it seems that we are more interested in exegeting and appealing to the culture of the day than really “Preaching the Word.”
Kirk indeed did hit on open sore…but I think his criticism is valid. If you are going to call yourself a seeker-sensitive church with the primary mission of winning the lost…then are you presenting an accurate gospel message to those lost people- one that will actually be used of the Spirit of God to convict people of their desperate need for a Savior and to turn from their sin and embrace Christ. There are many issues in the fundamental and traditional churches that we have to be addressed equally….but Kirk’s specific question is for the seeker-sensitive churches ......and I think he has a valid point! Let’s not shoot down traditional or non-seeker models just because we didn’t like what Kirk said. That’s just immature. His comments are directed toward pastors of seeker-sensitive/emerging churches. So the question is for all you seeker-sensitive/emerging pastors…..does he have a point?
Phil DiLernia on Tue, June 26, 2007
Thanks Leonard!
This is so funny. We’re going to “put down” the local “seeker sensitive” church because a few people felt they were teaching a “watered down” gospel and we’re supposed to go “oooohhh?”
Maybe those people aren’t really concerned about other’s salvations? I see it all the time - people want “deep” preaching and many times (I didn’t say all the time) what that means is studying the proper names of all the Kings and studying Greek and Hebrew and not being concerned about whether the poor, the blind, the weak, and the uneducated actually hear the GOSPEL - which is WE ARE ALL SINNERS AND JESUS DIED FOR US ALL. That is a Gospel of hope and a Gospel of love and a Gospel of mercy. Paul says that this a Gospel of righteousness versus self-righteousness (see Romans 1.)
Now if you claim these dissatisfied people from the “seeker sensitive” church we in fact new believers then you should be praising God that there was a local church to you that’s actually saving people so they could then transfer to your high and deep level of teaching! Don’t put that church down - thank them! Their people walking out the back door may be the best opportunity for growth in those churches that are saving so few (please don’t tell me that churches don’t save but God does - I know that but it seems that in His wisdom He has decided to work through His churches.)
Why don’t you copy the signs of the seeker sensitive church and then when you get them in I’m certain they would never think of leaving your church to go to another!
Forgive my sarcasm but I can’t take it when pastors or leaders will use the dissatisfaction of the few to draw a condemning conclusion on the whole assembly! That’s what you did - like it or not.
Glen, no disrespect but we are discussing the topic - whether Kirk is right when he says that certain growing churches are growing without the full counsel of God! Those are his words - not mine. I had the opportunity to listen to his dissaster of an effort to do an apologetic on ABC.com and between him and Ray Comfort they did the Christian apologetic a disservice. It was such a shame that they didn’t even have an answer to people and all of this hullabaloo about proving God WITHOUT THE BIBLE! This was his advertisement (which I liked by the way) and he failed miserably. All he ever mentioned was Intelligent Design without bringing any other evidence (there is great scientific and mathamatical evidence to the existence of God by the way.) All I’m saying is that we are actually dialoging with what Kirk said.
He didn’t say that people weren’t being asked to come to salvation - he said that they weren’t being asked in the “right way.” Period.
And what I’m saying is that if the “right way” produced the majority of our church today - then the “right” way wasn’t so right after all. Period.
NOW ... how’s about some of the older churches being more honest and seeking help from the growing churches about how they are doing it?
AND ... how’s about some of the older churches lend the growing churches a hand (if they feel qualified to do so) and giving them a hint on how they produced so many true disciples of Christ? Hmmmm ....
MG on Tue, June 26, 2007
Glen good post, well stated and back to the subject I must disagree with Phil’s implication that it is simply a “right way” issue, it is a content issue. Half a gospel presentation is NOT a gospel presentation. A person cannot be saved who doesn’t repent, Paul describes this clearly in 2 Cor. 7:9,10 where he shares a concern for the possible harshness of his letter to the Corinthians and whether or not it was too harsh and may cause them to suffer sorrow needlessly, and the NASB version states it well when it says the following:
For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while—
<u>I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.</u></b>
<u>For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. </u>
Translation - sorrow that is shallow and horizontally directed at men or women, sorrow for hurting family, friend or child or sorrow for getting caught - produces no repentance and ends in death. Sorrow for offending God, breaking His commandments, ignoring His statutes and His Son, as Psalm 51:4 so eloquently reveals the heart of David and his recognition of the offended One - produces repentance, without regret, leading to salvation.
And Leonard it is not about arguing whose methods are better or not, there is one side which regularly proclaims people saved and secure and gives a false sense of security and the purveyors of such will often times declare their numbers publicly as evidence of God’s blessing when in fact all that is done in such a situation is the church is puffed up without cause and ignores the call to examining oneself to see if they are genuinely in the faith, waiting for the fruit of repentance and fruits of the spirit to confirm one has been born of God and doesn’t remain unregenerate and lost.You would think more pastors would be able to understand the parable of the sower, but it appears something has blinded the eyes of those who refuse to see. Likewise there is another message from Jesus about a broad way and a narrow way as well, one leads to destruction and the other leads to eternal life. Which one are you on? Seriously,..the time to consider that question is now for narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life and there are few who find it.May God have mercy and grant them eyes to see and ears to hear.
Mercy and grace….
Al on Tue, June 26, 2007
The HS will direct a Minister, an Evangelist, a Believer if they will listen, on what to say to those who are lost. There is not “one” way to preach the gospel. The Scripture account is filled with account after account of how God used men and women to spread his word. While Kirk has a point, it isn’t the ONLY point, and while God might be using him to reach some according to his gifting, he is not the Judge of how God is using the gifts of others to reach the lost.
In this discussion I am reminded of the Apostle’s words:
Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4 (NASB)
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