The MicroChurch Movement
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 29, 2005
- Viewed 214
- (52) comments so far
I'd love to hear your responses...
Todd
NBC News reports on the ‘MicroChurch Movement’... click here... Looks inviting. But more like what I experience in a small group setting…
Comments
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Kent on Tue, November 29, 2005
Wendi, I’m not quite sure what was a low blow, I was not asking about how submissive you are. I was asking when the last time your pastor preached on women submitting to their husbands, as an example of how large churches do not want to step on toes by preaching ALL truth.
I could have used another example of culturally and politically incorrect topics of the Bible that are shunned by the churches who don’t want to lose crowds, I’m sorry if that one offended you.
John on Tue, November 29, 2005
Micro-church is just church in most areas of the world. Mega church? uniquely American, except maybe for ye olde cathedral concept. Like big cars, big shopping malls, etc. In the future, just as in societies that have no middle class, I can imagine middle-sized churches disappearing. Having been in a Jesus community years ago after some disappointing experiences in institutional churches, I believe that small group community offers a better environment for spiritual formation and disciple-making. I enjoy megachurch gatherings from time to time, but I sometimes wonder what first century church leaders would make of our variation adaptations. They sang psalms: if only they had the original audio-tracks (digitalized). They packed the Temple courts, then huddled in homes to break bread and pray. So micro-church or mega-church might’ve been less novel to them than I suppose.
Bill on Tue, November 29, 2005
Wendi said: “There is room for all types and sizes.”
Bill: Wendi there is room for all shapes and sizes - but there is not room for all types - you would know this clearly and understand the problems we have voiced with PD and WCA were you able to accept Jesus words that “Narrow is the way that leads to life and there are few who find it”. The PD and WCA efforts are primarily about widening the gates and Jesus clearly taught the opposite of this.
On another topic you brought up Wendi - do you consider it okay for you or another woman to be Senior Pastor of a church? Just curious as to how orthodox you really are.
In Christ,
Bill
Wendi on Tue, November 29, 2005
Bill - I don’t recall bringing up the issue of women in ministry, it was Kent who chose to ask me particularly about the last time my pastor preached about women submitting to their husbands. And I don’t think Todd would appreciate us going there on a post about micro-churches - so out of respect for this forum you’ll get no answer from me on that one.
And don’t worry about us, we know how narrow the gate is. But please, this post is not about PD or the WCA - and I’m very sorry to have told about my churches participation in both. If my comment led to hijacking I’m sorry.
Kent - come on . . . do you think I’m stupid and unsubmissive. You asked whether big or small churches are more likely to preach truth and I responded. Of all the thousands of rich and wonderful elements of grace and truth a pastor could preach about, you picked women submitting as a sermon topic you wondered if my pastor was preaching. Why would you ask that . . . in a post about micro churches?
Kent on Tue, November 29, 2005
Wendi, Yes it is a post about micro churches. What you are totally ignoring is the fact that the reason I brought up the culturally incorrect topics to teach on, is whether a small church is less likely to teach on a subject like that, or a large one.
You said: “Of all the thousands of rich and wonderful elements of grace and truth a pastor could preach about, you picked women submitting”
You make it sound like audacity to bring up such a topic. That topic is a picture of Christ and the Church! If a Pastor were to go 5 years without preaching on that structure and the structure of the home, then yes, there is a serious problem.
I make no apoligies for the Bible, I am making a clear example of a “critical” area that is ignored from the pulpit for fear of losing a crowd.
I know of mega churches that do preach all truth, John Macauther’s church is one of them. I also know of small churches that do not preach certain areas of the Bible because more fear of men than God.
My point being, what is “more likely”, for large churches to put aside certain unpopular areas of scripture or small churches. I’m not sure what there is about my post that one should get so upset about.
Todd on Tue, November 29, 2005
for crying out loud… http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
The topic, folks, is micro-churches.
Let’s face it, if micro-churches tick somebody off; half the church leaves.
I think it’s foolish to pair truth-telling with church-size.
Todd
Bill on Tue, November 29, 2005
Wendi,
Not trying to hijack the thread - I know that orthodoxy is relative to the individuals respect for the inerrancy and authority of scripture. I spent 2 years in what I described as a solid Bible-based church which now is consumed by softened life enhancement messages and very little exposition of the word. I see the carnage from such a watering down of God’s word in the watered down faith of a very close friend I once looked up to regarding his faith. I now grieve the result of what years under the teaching of a WCA/PD church has done to this once solid Christian brother.
The question about women pastors was simply to gauge your true orthodox level. Not to hijack the forum. A simple yes or no to women pastors would have sufficed to reveal that.
The reason PD/WCA continues to come up is that it has taken over so many churches or Christians lives and ministries.
In Christ,
Bill
Kent on Tue, November 29, 2005
Todd: I think it’s foolish to pair truth-telling with church-size.
Kent: Todd, you seriously don’t see any connection to the way human beings generally deal with large crowds versus smal ones when having to lay out unpopulur issues?
Todd on Tue, November 29, 2005
This is one of Bernie’s big things… that large church’s don’t preach the Word for fear of losing people’s donations.
I think the same case can be made in bigger measure for the smaller churches… It’s much easier to keep quiet to garner support (or stay away from battles) in a small church than a larger church.
Do people deal differently in large groups than in small groups? Absolutely.
But to say that large churches shy away from telling the truth to keep their size; and that small churches have no problem proclaiming the truth is a moot point. I think they both have reasons/issues in this area… but to say one is more truthful because of size is… well… yes, foolish.
My 2 cents.
Todd
Wendi on Tue, November 29, 2005
I had determined not to respond further . . . but
I enjoy this discussion generally but know that I have been guilty of adding to the ridiculousness of side roads by trying to make unmakable points. I’d determined to offer some thoughts today about what I saw as the potential advantages and disadvantages of the original post – MICRO CHURCHES. I asked for this I guess, by asking you Kent, why such frequent generalization “like most churches today . . .”
But for the life of me, I don’t see how my comments could possibly have led logically to “truth” in my church being gauged by how frequently my pastor preaches on submission or my own orthodoxy being gauged by my position on a women in senior leadership in the church. Nor do I see how my pastor’s choice of sermon topics or my position on women in ministry is connected with the news clip about micro churches. I’m not trying to gauge any of your orthodoxy, why are you trying to gauge mine? Please go back and read my post about pros and cons of micro churches – and offer some feedback about that.
But for the record – my circle of orthodoxy includes only those things which are connected to salvation by grace, through faith – so it is a very small circle. Those of us inside that circle will enjoy eternity together, and while on earth, we will have held a myriad of different positions on other points of doctrine, including women in ministry.
Beyond that, you’ll have to guess.
BeHim on Tue, November 29, 2005
Revelation 3:14-22 speaks of a church age when it seems Jesus is NOT in the church but rather outside the church.
I’m still researching and studying these passages carefully but it would seem to parallel the church in Philipi which would bring up an intersting situation:
Culturally relative (BTW a great book on the subject was recently released: The West’s Last Chance by Tony Blankley) teaching and acceptance… another term for cultural relativism is “Post-Modern” which seems to promotet “luke warm” as the “norm” (generally speaking).
But hey, there are some practical ways to know that generally speaking we as Christians aren’t doing a very good “job” of holding back the sin (as “Salt” would hold back decay).
Divorce is equal to or greater than the worldly percentage (50%).
Abortion numbers have increased by 140% since 1965.
Homosexuality and sexual perversions are on the increase, including swinging and orgies.
Many churches are willing to accept all these in their church just to “git er done”… wink… couldn’t resist… lol.
The point is, what is Orthodox? What is Truth? What is THE Gospel?
Many are leaving churches and finding small groups and asking these type of questions.
Willing to test their beliefs and assumptions so they may KNOW The Truth.
Most know that things aren’t as they should be… a sense that things are even wrong in the church. Most would dismiss it and some would even say it’s the divisive ones that are at the root but all know… sin is increasing… in the church (Todd’s had articles on the blog about such things).
Discipleship is question/answer which is what you find in “micro” church or small groups.
Many church leaders don’t like to be questioned about what they believe or why they believe it, especially if there’s an opposing view. Generally speaking, I would suggest it’s usually because they don’t truly don’t know. They haven’t had enough of an opportunity to search or research the belief (doctrine). I can make this statement because I too was one who thought I know but really had no idea.
Wendi is right in asking: “Disadvantages and cautions: I’m not one to insist on a seminary education for everyone in vocational ministry, but if no one in the group has biblical or theological training, how is orthodoxy protected?”
How many church leaders can tell you specifically what Orthodoxy is?
I asked a question about the four major views of Justification one time (here on this blog as well) and the final conclusion???… it’s not “relative” (not here but close).
Justification deals with a person’s Righteousness. It is most imperative!
I would also suggest discussing what views of Orthodox there are… What is the Reformed view, Protestant view, Lutheran View, Eastern Orthodox view… etc.
Why are these important? Because God DOESN’T change. His Teachings are the same today as they were 6000 years ago. Culture doesn’t change these Doctrines. Time doesn’t change these Doctrines. Why? Because these Doctrines are founded IN His Charachter and His Charachter doesn’t change.
I have always recommended that study groups start with Sovereignty. Get to the MAIN point FIRST. God is the ONLY Sovereign Being in Existence (my assumption http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif.
Anyway, thanks for the article Todd and I like you look forward to the comments.
Peter Hamm on Tue, November 29, 2005
I love how this discussion has been hijacked! It’s very entertaining.
One of you asked “when the last time your pastor preached on women submitting to their husbands, as an example of how large churches do not want to step on toes by preaching ALL truth.”
My experience has been that when the topic of women submitting to their husbands is brought up, it is often out of context. My wife submits to me. I also submit to her. We’re supposed to submit to one another, and I’m s’posed to love her like Christ loved the church. (I don’t think the topic was women in leadership either, but if women are supposed to never lead, somebody better tell Junia, Priscilla—often mentioned BEFORE her husband… very telling—and Deborah that.)
It appears many of us do agree with the thought that no matter the size of the church, the penchant for “bad teaching” might be the same. I agree with that…
Matt on Tue, November 29, 2005
While I don’t see anything non biblical about micro churches, there is still one thing bothering me and that is the idea that the church STAYS micro indefinitely. Would not this be a sign of lack of evangelism? I understand that a very loud faction of posters on this blog worship discipleship above all other functions of a church (of course that’s hyperbole), but isn’t evangelism crucial to a church’s health? Isn’t growing a church biblical?
Wendi on Tue, November 29, 2005
Matt - yep, that’s what happened to my vet’s micro / home church (my post waaaaaay back). And you are right - the home churches in the first century were completely missional.
It seems like the motive for wanting to be part of a home church would inform the potential for evangelism and outreach. If (as in their case) it is to be together because of frustration with a larger church, staying small would be a priority. Of course, they could multiply, but that means being intentional about adding people first. That takes energy and focus on how to join together in missional efforts equally with worship and study. Doesn’t it?
Evangelist Jeff on Wed, November 30, 2005
Good morning to everyone. I have been reading over the comments from yesterday and a few that have been written this morning.
I do believe that we have gotten off chasing rabbits, when we need to be need to be on the trail of talking about MircoChurches.
It appears to me that the article never said anything about them not being submissive to the pastor, church leaders, their wives or their husbands.
If I remember correclty, I do believe this is how the new testament believers did it. This is for all of those who want to be biblically correct or politically correct. You all are all the time wanting to do everything down to the dotting of the I’s and the crossing of the T’s. THIS MESSAGE IS FOR YOU.
1) Does it really matter if a church has 6 members every Sunday or if it has 60,000 people in it every Sunday. I heard B.R. Lakin say one time “There are no small churches with God. Becasue when God is in it, it is a big church not a small church.
2) I talked to my pastor on Monday night about what I was doing on the weekends. We are starting a church in our homes on Sat. to reach those who do not want to go to church. I have invited them to come for bible study. We are going to be loving them and nuturing them in the way of the bible. We are going to slowly move them into finding a church home to join as we go.
3) Just because I am holding church in my home does not mean we are going to quit going to our church. Why? Because we need it. God called us to be minister’s and missionaries. This is our ministry for the Lord. How do I know this; through trial and error.
4) You can catch more bees with honey than you can with manure.
5) When you go fishing the fish will not come to you and just leap on the bank. You have to look for them, you have to use different bait. Sometimes you even have to get muddy and wet. But that is the part that you all don’t like.
6)I know that you all have your own thoughts and opinions and that is good. But I try to see your view point without trying to be critical. You are always wanting to rebuke and reprove and use the bible to do so with all of us who aree.
So I want to give you two examples in the bible, of who you are being…
1) Do you all remember the story of Mary and Martha the day Jesus visited them. Martha was so comsumed with doing dishes and then she critized her own sister for worshipping the Lord.
2) Do you all remember when Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep three times. Then told him how he would suffer and die for him. But Peter was more worried about John and his ministry.
Try to remember this guys: It is easy to set on the sidelines and critize, but it becames a different game when your asked to pray.
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