The MicroChurch Movement
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 29, 2005
- Viewed 212
- (52) comments so far
I'd love to hear your responses...
Todd
NBC News reports on the ‘MicroChurch Movement’... click here... Looks inviting. But more like what I experience in a small group setting…
Comments
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Kent on Wed, November 30, 2005
Todd said: “But to say that large churches shy away from telling the truth to keep their size; and that small churches have no problem proclaiming the truth is a moot point. I think they both have reasons/issues in this area… but to say one is more truthful because of size is… well… yes, foolish”.
Kent: Todd, I never said that small churches “never” have a problem with speaking out on culturally incorrect Bible topics, and that Big churches “always” do.
I even gave an example in John MacAuthur’s church as being a mega church without compromise.
What I am saying is that the “potential” is greater in a large church, with the pastor not knowing who may be out there in is sea of people that he might offend, so he has more of a propensity to squelch the topics that tend to offend the culture. To deny that greater potential…or to say that that point is moot is in my opinion what is ...foolish.
Peter, you will never find in the Bible that a husband is to submit to his wifes authority. That kind of teaching is typical of today’s fear of teaching truth. The truth is a husband is to model Christ in sacrificing his life for his wife, loving here as Christ loved the church, putting her before himself yet being the authority and leader as Christ is to us, his bride.
Todd on Wed, November 30, 2005
OK… enough of the ‘foolishness’ (although you guys started it) http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
I think we just simply disagree on the size thing. I just don’t believe that the probability is greater. The need to maintain and survive can drive the small church just as much as the need for growth can drive the large church when speaking aobut truth. And there are literally thousands of small churches compared to the hundreds of large churches. I just don’t see where size has to play an issue here. I understand what you’re saying… just don’t agree.
My point… church, both large and small, need to proclaim the truth, regardless of size or motivation. It can be difficult in EVERY situation.
There is just such a pre-deteremined notion among so many to bring everything down to size (and a few other things) no matter what the subject is we talk about.
Todd
Kent on Wed, November 30, 2005
Matt: but isn’t evangelism crucial to a church’s health? Isn’t growing a church biblical?
Kent: Absolutely Matt, evangelism is crucial, and a church should be growing. The key is continually “going out” evangelizing, seeing people won to the Lord, by his Word, not our man made efforts, then getting the new converts plugged in, growing to a certain size, then starting the whole process over again in a daughter church.
Evangelist Jeff on Wed, November 30, 2005
Kent, I know Bill is lurking around out there somewhere too. But you failed to read my comments didn’t you. Why do you want to be like Martha and Peter brother.. You know you are always telling us that we take scripture out of context all the time.
I have to agree with Peter this time… I love my wife as Christ loved the Church. I do without things so she can have the things she needs. But you know what brother. Your just like that Pharisee that prayed, Lord I do this for you and that for you, and to tell you truth Lord I thank you that I am not like Jeff, Todd, Peter, Brian and the rest of them. Wake up and smell the coffee brother.. I will not apologize for this today…. Why? Because you and others are always saying you need to correct us your brothers. Jesus did not save you to correct us, he saved you to minister for him. But all you want to do is tear down, and that is not biblical… Come on Bill I know you too brother…. Come on the two of you… Why you two want to set around and polish your swords and sharpen them, the rest of us are out using them for the Lord the correct way. It’s because of people like you why the church is not filled, because they know you and they don’t want to be around you.
Tony on Wed, November 30, 2005
Todd and everyone,
I think you are right, size should not matter when it comes to the functionality and effectiveness of a church. It is the church’s willingness to submit to the authority of God, to proclaim the Truth and to convey grace, compassion and forgiveness. I’ve seen and have been a part of churches of both the large and small caliber that fall under this category, as well as having been part of small churches and have seen large churches that don’t exhibit any fruits of the Spirit. That is heartbreaking.
One of the prof’s that I had when I was at Talbot has a book that is very good on this subject. “One Size Doesn’t Fit All” by Dr. Gary McIntosh deals with effective ministry, regardless of the church size.
It’s kind of funny, I meet with a group of men on Wednesday mornings for prayer, Bible study and some fellowship. Our group includes one person from my church, a pastor from another church here in the community, a retired pastor, and a couple of other people from even different churches. Each of us has a little different take on some of the doctrines of the church, yet we all read the same Bible and as we share some our different ways of how we read what we have been studying, we talk, share and come to an understanding. Do we leave still having our differences in doctrine? Of course. Do we love each other in the way that Christ loves us? Absolutely!
The difference in church philosophy, in the different views of church size, I keep coming back to what Paul says in Romans 12 where he urges us not to conform to the ways of the world. I do believe that there are churches out there who have sold out to become large and bring in lots of people, as well as lots of $$ in offerings. I do believe as well that there are lots of large churches who are on mission and are following the direction of God through the Holy Spirit. I also am reminded of what Paul says a few verses later where he talks about the different parts of the body and the different functions, but as long as Christ is the head, each part belongs to the other.
Back to my Wednesday morning group. As we are ordering breakfast, sometimes someone, in ordering the same thing one of the othes has ordered, will say “I want to be like so and so.” I think sometimes as pastors we look at the Rick Warren’s, the John Ortberg’s or the Bill Hybels’ of the world and we say we want to be like them. As for me, I want to be like Christ! I have a long ways to go, but why set your sights on people who are imperfect when you can set your sights on the Son who was and is perfect?
Blessings,
Tony
Kent on Wed, November 30, 2005
Todd: There is just such a pre-deteremined notion among so many to bring everything down to size (and a few other things) no matter what the subject is we talk about.
Kent: I guess I kind of thought this topic was about size.
Todd on Wed, November 30, 2005
Kent,
Let me be more clear (because the subject of this post was about size).
The tangent I felt we got off on was that the size of the church determined how effectively or how easily the church is able to communicate truth.
The supposition was made that large churches have a more difficult time proclaiming all areas of the truth (especially the socially unacceptable ones) than the smaller churches.
To that, I disagree.
Again, we come back to where we do on so many posts there… the large vs. the small; and how the large church is somehow sub-par.
This post was about size. But NOT about how large churches are uneffective and/or unbiblical in proclaiming the truth.
Todd
Peter Hamm on Wed, November 30, 2005
Todd, thanks for getting us back on point.
I went from serving as a volunteer staff member (Worship Leader/Youth Pastor) in a small church (under 30 families) to full-time staff (Worship Arts Pastor) in a large church (900 - 1000 weekend attendance) and I can say with a LITTLE authority that neither church’s size mattered in it’s ability or willingness to teach Biblical truth.
But… I have to admit, the small church was always struggling with their inability (resource-wise) to do all the things they felt God calling them to do, and this big church spends a good amount of time sorting through and picking from all the possibilities the things we CAN do to fulfill our God-given mission. Resources are still an issue, but not NEARLY as much. (God has really blessed us in that regard!)
In other words, the challenges are VERY different, although there seems to be a lot less politicking in this big church, but I think it’s because it’s an unusually fantastic church. (biased…)
BeHim on Wed, November 30, 2005
Oh Peter…. Mutual Submission???
Chapter and verse, let’s read this Scripture together.
EJ why are you sharpening your sword on Kent and Bill’s throat all the while telling them to put theirs down?
Do you mind if I ask a question off topic?
What is Scripture for? Why do we pick up the Bible and teach it? What is its purpose?
Peter Hamm on Wed, November 30, 2005
BeHim,
In Ephesians 5 right before the whole deal on wives submitting, we are told “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” I’m convinced it is the connecting thought between the sections. Here’s why.
The word submit in the Greek only occurs in 5:21, NOT in 5:22, because 5:22 is a continuation of the thought as the next section begins, interestingly part of the same grammatical sentence, although most Bible translations end the paragraph at 21. SO, submitting to one another seems to me the PREFACE comment to the instruction to Wives, and the sentence continues all the way to the end of vs. 24.
But besides that, how can I love my wife as Christ loved the church without washing her feet? That sounds like a submissive position. Plus, my real issue was women in leadership, and I think we’ve got some great examples in the OT and the NT of that, for sure.
Sorry for the digression, but BeHim, you asked a great question. That said, I think it’s so off point that maybe we should leave it off. You’re probably not going to change my mind on this, and I’m probably not going to change yours, just know that I’m not pulling it out of the air.
Peter
BeHim on Thu, December 01, 2005
[You’re probably not going to change my mind on this, and I’m probably not going to change yours, just know that I’m not pulling it out of the air]
Hopefully we can agree that Scripture should be the determining factor (for us as Christians) in what we know and understand, no matter what we have been taught or think to be true. Thereby our thougts are that of Scripture and not on what we think or hope to be true based on what we may have been taught or conceive to be True. Let God (Scripture) be True and every man a liar.
Also I know you’re not pulling it out of “the air” (interesting choice of words though), there are any number of post modern and multi-cultural books that promote this teaching, including the best seller, “Everyman’s Battle”.
However Peter, let’s assume you’re correct about Ephesians 5 v.21, “submitting to one another in the fear of God.”, being the “thesis” (concluded proposal) and that it proves v.22 to teach mutual submission.
Wives should submit to their own husbands and husbands should submit to their wives, as to the Lord. <-This is mutual submission.
The problem with assuming v.21 is the thesis for v.22 is that it also would be the thesis for v.23, 24 and even chapter 6 v.1 because it’s a complete thought.
Which would then teach:
Wives, submit to your own husbands [husbands, submit to your own wives], as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife [the wife is the head of the husband], as also Christ is head of the church [as also the church is the head of Christ]; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ [just as Christ is subject to the church], so let the wives be to their own husbands [so let the husbands be to their own wives] in everything. Chapter 6 v.1: Children, obey your parents in the Lord [parents obey your children in the Lord], for this is right.
These versus do NOT teach “mutual submission” (nor does ANY part of Scripture), in fact, these Scriptures are teaching the roles of the family and about authority and honor (sacrifice through esteeming others higher than self).
1 Peter 3:7 teaches this as well:
Honor is about sacrifice (by esteeming others higher than self) and authority (by stating a “weaker vessel” assumes a stronger vessel - authority).
The weaker vessel refers to two aspects:
1. Physically
2. a different (NOT equal) authority
Understanding Honor and Authority is important to the context of both the Ephesians and 1 Peter Scriptures.
If the husband doesn’t take headship over his wife, he considers himself to be the weaker vessel (contradicting Scripture btw) thus DIShonoring his wife and giving preference to himself (esteeming himself higher than his wife).
The doctrine of “mutual submission” is destroying the fabric of family values and the structure of the family “unit” and could very well be responsible for much of the high divorce rate amoung Christians.
Scripture is clear from Genesis to Revelation what God’s intended structure of authority will be. It’s disheartening to see a Scriptural error being accepted so openly and without care or consideration.
BTW. Please don’t confuse what I’m saying with not serving our wives.
I’ll use this analogy:
I can serve a homosexual without submitting to his authority.
I can serve my wife without submitting to her authority, just as Christ served His Disciples when He washed their feet BUT He did not submit to their authority.
My friends may we grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Bill on Thu, December 01, 2005
BeHim,
Very well stated and let me thank you for the edifying commentary on Ephesians. I believe the fabric of our society rests heavily on people accepting their proper roles of authority and submitting when necessary as well as stepping up when required to do so.
Being the product of a couple who sruggled in marriage until they began to live out their marriage from an Ephesians model and my mom submitting to my father while he gave himself for her with an almost Christ-like amount of love and sacrifice being his measuring stick - it was at that point of rededication that their marriage began to thrive and as he put it in his eulogy of her - the Sunflower from Kansas became a flourishing and beautiful flower rather than a weed as they can be considered in Nebraska. I’ll leave you with the quote from his eulogy:
Life was pretty good but there was still restlessness. The black and white rules and regulations and expectations we had of each other and life were just black and white. And there were failures and blaming.
Finally we discovered living color in our Marriage Encounter friends who showed us so much about loving one another. The idea that love is a decision—-that we could decide to do what was best for each other even if we weren’t feeling warm and close, but hurt or angry or tired or distant. That kind of love bore fruit and brought acceptance and forgiveness and eventually joy. When we shaped our lives around “wives be submissive to your husbands”, things began to happen. If that sounds good guys, listen to the next part—-“Husbands love your wives as Christ loved his church and gave himself up for her”. Try that!
Mary Jane was a sunflower seed. The Lord planted her in me and she grew. Being from Nebraska where sunflowers are weeds, I wanted corn. The more I wanted corn, the more she wilted. When I finally loved her for who she was, let her roots sink deep into me and provide all the nourishment I could, see what a strong and tall and beautiful sunflower grew—-and with it so much seed.
In Christ,
Bill
Bill on Thu, December 01, 2005
BeHim,
Very well stated and let me thank you for the edifying commentary on Ephesians. I believe the fabric of our society rests heavily on people accepting their proper roles of authority and submitting when necessary as well as stepping up when required to do so.
Being the product of a couple who sruggled in marriage until they began to live out their marriage from an Ephesians model and my mom submitting to my father while he gave himself for her with an almost Christ-like amount of love and sacrifice being his measuring stick - it was at that point of rededication that their marriage began to thrive and as he put it in his eulogy of her - the Sunflower from Kansas became a flourishing and beautiful flower rather than a weed as they can be considered in Nebraska. I’ll leave you with the quote from his eulogy:
Life was pretty good but there was still restlessness. The black and white rules and regulations and expectations we had of each other and life were just black and white. And there were failures and blaming.
Finally we discovered living color in our Marriage Encounter friends who showed us so much about loving one another. The idea that love is a decision—-that we could decide to do what was best for each other even if we weren’t feeling warm and close, but hurt or angry or tired or distant. That kind of love bore fruit and brought acceptance and forgiveness and eventually joy. When we shaped our lives around “wives be submissive to your husbands”, things began to happen. If that sounds good guys, listen to the next part—-“Husbands love your wives as Christ loved his church and gave himself up for her”. Try that!
Mary Jane was a sunflower seed. The Lord planted her in me and she grew. Being from Nebraska where sunflowers are weeds, I wanted corn. The more I wanted corn, the more she wilted. When I finally loved her for who she was, let her roots sink deep into me and provide all the nourishment I could, see what a strong and tall and beautiful sunflower grew—-and with it so much seed.
In Christ,
Bill
Peter Hamm on Thu, December 01, 2005
BeHim,
I quote myself, quoted by you “[You’re probably not going to change my mind on this, and I’m probably not going to change yours…]”
Well, both our posts are proof of this, and totally off topic, so let’s get back to talking about micro-churches… or move on to the next thing.
Blessings,
Peter
Kent on Thu, December 01, 2005
Behim, Thanks for sticking to the Word on that. Scripture is very clear on instructing us on our role in marriage, it is our flesh that feels it must, improve scripture.
It all boils down quite simply to the picture we’ve been given with Christ as the husband and the church as the bride.
Does Christ submit to the church’s authority? Of course not. Does he submit himself as a sacrifice and a servent? absolutley.
Peter, let’s not twist scripture into saying that Christ is to submit to his brides authority.
This is a subject that churches have an extremely difficult time stating just what the Bible says. Most of the time I here it taught, the teacher is fumbling all over himself apoligizing for what the Bible says about wives submitting to the authority of their own husbands. Or, because of the social implications, they ignore it all together as I was trying to point out ealier.
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