“Women’s Tops Shall Not Reveal More Than Three Finger Widths from the Chin on Down”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Sun, July 29, 2007
- Viewed 330
- (71) comments so far
They share a faith and a calling, but some Battle Creek-area Baptist pastors have a hard time processing a Hillsdale County minister’s recent controversial actions at the pulpit.
Jason Burrick, pastor of Allen Baptist Church, remains at the center of a storm, which has included the arrests of 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey for trespassing June 17 and July 15 and what critics see as his chauvinistic view of women.
Hillsdale County Prosecutor Neal Brady twice dismissed the charges against Caskey, who chose to attend Sunday services after Burrick revoked her church membership. Brady said Caskey was not being disruptive.
The ensuing stir has highlighted vast differences within the Baptist faith, which has at least 20 umbrella organizations, about what a woman’s role should be.
Several area Baptist church bar women from leadership roles.
“There are all kinds of shades of Baptists,” said Marvin Savola, pastor of one such church, North Athens Baptist Church, 2020 M Drive S. in Athens.
Local Baptist ministers said they don’t know Burrick or Allen Baptist, which is an independent church, but they have read published reports.
Since Burrick arrived almost two years ago, women in the tiny Allen Township church have been removed from office positions and forbidden to assist with communion, former members told the Enquirer.
Additionally, women were no longer allowed to wear slacks or pant suits, and tops were not to reveal more than three-finger widths from the chin on down. Women have to remain quiet during services unless called upon, former members said.
Burrick has declined to comment on Caskey’s arrests or his church’s policies toward women.
The Rev. William Wyne, pastor of Second Missionary Baptist Church, 485 N. Washington Ave. in Battle Creek, called reports about the church “disturbing.”
“When the person that God has placed in the church begins to act ungodly, that embarrasses God,” Wyne said.
Such edicts deviate from the spirit of Jesus, who was a nonconformist and associated with prostitutes and lepers, another pastor said.
“I think it’s a dangerous thing when you say, ‘You have to dress like this,’” said the Rev. Morris Anderson of 220-member Lakeview Baptist Church, 7 20th St. “People usually have good taste when they come to church. When you say women have to wear dresses and men can’t wear earrings, I think it’s missing what the gospel is about. I think it’s gone off the deep end down there.”
More of the article from The Battle Creek Enquirer here.
Just a show of hands… how many of you reading here at MMI have were brought up in a legalistic church? My guess is a good percentage. What caused you to break away?
Legalism is still alive and well in the church today. Take this follow-up report from a story we told you earlier about. The church is only about 30 minutes from me just across the Michigan state line. But they are making major waves...
Comments
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Derek on Mon, July 30, 2007
Leonard—
Modesty and dress codes are controversial enough to hit 100 posts….just maybe! And count me in for a MMI neck tie.
Concerning dress codes, I learned a lot about the subject when I was a youth pastor. We inforced a dress code for all our young ladies and it blew up in our face. It was a major fight. My wife and I call it the “Dress Code Wars.” The code itself was fair. It was the same as the schools dress code. We had girls changing after school into more revealing clothes to come to church.
The problem was the parents.
The parents encouraged the girls to wear whatever they wanted.
We didn’t get the parents on board before starting the dress code.
The parents accused me of legalism.
You definetly have to win over people’s heart—both youth and adults—before trying to get them to adhere to an external code. I think it can become a barrier.
Derek
Derek on Mon, July 30, 2007
In the end, our dress code was for the girls to carry themselves with modesty. In our youth ministry we ended up teaching our girls to keep the four Bs covered:
Boobs
Belly
Back
Butt
Over the years, our dress code has dissolved and our girls dress in modesty because they have been taught well over the years. I have even heard some older girls tell yonger girls to cover their “Bs”.
Derek
Dan Moore on Mon, July 30, 2007
Dress code. That is a tough one. I believe a better strategy is just living by example. I also believe that the elders should be gently and lovingly guiding the younger when it comes to modesty. In the book of James we have the passage where the rich were given the best seats because they wear also the better dressed. The poor had to sit elsewhere. James chastized the churches for that wrongful bias and treatment.
For certain duties within our church, we do have a dress code: ushers and greeters, those serving communion, choir, and deacons. This is not based on any legalism, but actually a way for identifying people with helping roles to the rest of the congregation.
Finally, my wife has a dress code for me. I am the only one in the congregation required to wear a coat and tie…because my wife says so!
Pastor Rusty on Mon, July 30, 2007
I think the dress code we need to abide by is the dress code that Paul tried to outline to us in many places in his letters to various groups of believers. Our spiritual dress code will far outweigh any physical dress code…if we let it!
But we are sooooooo human trying to be sooooooooo Godly. We often forget that any modesty is designed to keep the modest one safe, holy and beautiful the way God intended. It is not for our convenience.
I once spoke in a large gathering of Salvation Army folk about the high cost of uniformity. When the Army first formed up ranks, it wanted to stand out as being different from the world. Now it seems people dress in uniform to be the same and belong to a church. This is not a slam on the Army, but rather an observation of human nature.
In the sixties hippies with sandals needed a place to worship and belong. Now whole denominations are centred around that theme that we let people belong if they dont dress up. I wonder how they would respond to the tie wearing business man about to commit suicide who happens into a khaki shorts and t-shirt worship.
Be careful we dont let the pendulum of judgement swing back on us! Just love people according to their worth in God’s eyes. No matter how they are dressed. I worked in the inner city of Toronto in the 70’s and some of the clients were hookers and dancers from the bar next door. Their dress code was both imaginitive and tiny. But working in accountability groups we were able to minister to them and as they accepted Christ, they eventual valued themselves enough to change clothes! Blessings…from the land of snow and ice, where modesty in the winter time is not an issue.
Brian on Mon, July 30, 2007
interesting how everyone focuses on youth dress (or those of much less means)when “setting the bar” for dress “by example”… while a “written code” is a bad idea for adults, (although I believe it is necessary for teens and kids), it is a fact that every church has a social culture, social preferences, etc… Jesus didn’t lead a local church, he moved in and out of a variety of social environments, rarely was he in the relgious gathering places… I would look to Paul’s teachings to find the most direct instruction on the subject…
Back to the point… who is trying to reach the professionals, or those with military backgrounds, etc… that don’t own a pair of sandals, or who don’t like to wear jeans…etc…
My point is, I believe we are setting artificial dress standards because we see Ed Young Jr. or some other ministry leader that we look up to dress a certain way and we try to import those dress standards into XYZ Commuinty, USA…
To me the more important question is the local culture. Underlying that then is the concern, especially for women, of modesty. And for that subject, we need more specific teaching from the pulpit. Women need to hear from their male pastors, that their reavling clothing is causing men to be distracted in their worship of God.
So what do you think? Are we reaching ALL people groups through extreme casual dress? Are we trying to copy “trendy” ministries and setting looking “cool” as a unspoken dress code?
I think it is just as “legalistic” for someone dressed in flipflops to look at someone in a suit and think or say “wow, that person is stiff” or “too conservative”…
Your thoughts?
Camey on Mon, July 30, 2007
“Women’s Tops Shall Not Reveal…..” - this would knock out most of my group. I do not insist that each female change the way in which they dress before becoming a part of the group. I do, however, try to model and teach about the conditions of the heart which leads to such dress. This is my opinion for what it is worth…..
A group like this would not have been welcomed inside the church walls growing up. Each individual would have been helped in “secret” and away from the walls. While some can argue that this is taking the church to the people….. I would suggest that if individuals are not welcomed inside the walls - are they truly welcomed and accepted as they are any where else? What are the true intentions of those “helping them”???
I hope that makes some sense. Trying to make a quick comment before heading out the door for the day. And yes, I do have more to say at a later point… http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif
Leonard on Mon, July 30, 2007
Don’t come to church naked.
Lori on Mon, July 30, 2007
While some of the comments made are right on, like teach ALL young people to dress modestly, I think we have gotten a little off track.
This pastor has enforced a dress code on WOMEN only. He was removed WOMEN from any position of leadership. He was silenced WOMEN in church. This is much bigger than about the dress code. It is about a Baptist minister imposing almost Taliban-like oppression on the women of the church. I have seen this kind of thing, albeit not quite so blatant, before and it eventually destroys or renders a church useless.
If the published stories are true, it’s time for the pastors in the surrounding churches to speak to this Pastor. He obviously will not listen to the congregation and they are probably to frightened to fight him. But other minsters have the authority and the responsibility to speak to him.
One last note: I grew up in a church where we wore a dress every Sunday. It was not a “dress code” that’s just the way it was. However, no one would tell a woman not to wear slacks. And yes, now as a church leader, I have taught young women how to dress so as to be covered and not a temptation. But a church “banning” pants etc. has gone way too far.
Steve Riches on Mon, July 30, 2007
I seem to remember commenting on a blog here a few months back on a similar theme, although I’ve forgotten the specific topic.
I think that considering our appearance is especially important for those of us who are in prominent view during a worship service, such as worship band members, those who serve communion or offering, or take part in some other aspect of the service.
Understanding that the role of worship leaders is to contribute to worship should go without saying. But if some extreme aspect of our dress causes anyone to be distracted from worship, we have failed badly as worship leaders.
That can logically be extended to a slightly lesser degree to everyone who gathers for the purpose of worshipping together, if we are worshipping in view of each other.
Moderation is the key biblical ingredient that should guide our decision making.
Blessings,
Steve Riches
Brad Raby on Mon, July 30, 2007
Todd,
Back to the “how could I improve MMI” - this post is an example. Give us something to get people stirred up every onc in awile… http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif
DanielR (a different Daniel) on Mon, July 30, 2007
Like many churches today, our church does have a dress code. Yes, you have to wear something. Casual and comfortable. Shorts, t-shirts and flip-flops are OK. Better in fact than the high-heels and short skirts some young women have worn. God cares more about what we do and how we live our lives than how we dress.
I think God’s concern with what we wear is more about what it says about us than how it looks. And our dress code should be 24/7, not just for Sunday services. About the only thing in my closet I wouldn’t be comfortable wearing to our church is the suit and tie.
But Lori is right, this church has gone way past imposing a dress code. Women can’t speak in church unless called upon? No slacks I’ve heard of before but the three fingers from chin to neckline thing is a new one to me. And revoking someone’s church membership and having them arrested for trespassing? What’s up with that?
nora on Mon, July 30, 2007
I agree with Lori. This is not a story about dress code; this is a story about one man’s problems with women, and his desire to control and oppress them. It has always been interesting to me how the legalism in any religion—be it Islam or Christianity—usually hits women the hardest. They are the ones whose behaviors and clothing are more strictly controlled. In the book “Captivating” by Jon and Staci Eldridge, they talk about how Satan attempts to veil women’s beauty (inner and outer), and legalism is one of his favorite strategies for doing so. IMO, this particular pastor needs to examine his own heart and attitudes towards women, and get some serious counseling before continuing in ministry.
jhpw on Mon, July 30, 2007
I never really thought of myself as having a long neck, but three fingers widths from the chin down on me isn’t even to the base of my neck. I’d have to wear a turtleneck to comply with this rule! It takes a full hand-width to reach my collar bone. Maybe I have a long neck AND bony fingers - Oh no! sigh.
bishopdave on Mon, July 30, 2007
Monkey photos. Now.
At our church, we had a code for appearing on the stage/podium/altar area (if you got up in front of everyone); it stated covering the 4 b’s, and for guys shirts tucked in. Our culture was such that a guy with untucked shirt wasn’t respected. Say what you will, i thought that was pretty minimal AND it only was asked of those standing before the church.
Pastor Rusty on Mon, July 30, 2007
One of the backlashes of legalism is that people within the system start looking intently at the people in the church as objects. It would appear that this pastor sees women as objects, and it is his intent to stare at them under the guise of seeing if they are obeying the rules.
It opens the door for every man in the church to stare at women and look them up and down to see if they qualify to be there. Women in this type of setting should run for their lives…it is a form of abuse.
To stir the pot some more, i believe Paul only said that it would be better for women to sit quietly and not speak because the church he was addressing was an internally divided church. The men were fighting, and the women were adding to the clamor in support of “their man.” Martial arts teachers have known for a long time that it is hard for women to “pull their punches” in exhibition matches, and i think Paul discovered the same thing. When the men were finally mature enough to make peace, the women would want to carry on the discussion and it would start the fighting again.
It is proper for a woman to come to the defence of her man, but in a fight, it is better to remain wisely quiet. I think this pastor has totally missed the point, and is objectifying women and abusing them. While i am the spiritual head of my house, my wife is my equal partner in every way. I am grateful that freedom in Christ means equal in Christ as well!! Blessings to the wise women in this blog!
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