MondayMorningInsight - Leadership & Encouragement for Church Leaders

“Women’s Tops Shall Not Reveal More Than Three Finger Widths from the Chin on Down&#8221

Posted by: Todd
Posted on: Sun, July 29, 2007
Viewed 182
(71) comments so far

They share a faith and a calling, but some Battle Creek-area Baptist pastors have a hard time processing a Hillsdale County minister’s recent controversial actions at the pulpit.

Jason Burrick, pastor of Allen Baptist Church, remains at the center of a storm, which has included the arrests of 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey for trespassing June 17 and July 15 and what critics see as his chauvinistic view of women.

Hillsdale County Prosecutor Neal Brady twice dismissed the charges against Caskey, who chose to attend Sunday services after Burrick revoked her church membership. Brady said Caskey was not being disruptive.

The ensuing stir has highlighted vast differences within the Baptist faith, which has at least 20 umbrella organizations, about what a woman’s role should be.

Several area Baptist church bar women from leadership roles.

“There are all kinds of shades of Baptists,” said Marvin Savola, pastor of one such church, North Athens Baptist Church, 2020 M Drive S. in Athens.

Local Baptist ministers said they don’t know Burrick or Allen Baptist, which is an independent church, but they have read published reports.

Since Burrick arrived almost two years ago, women in the tiny Allen Township church have been removed from office positions and forbidden to assist with communion, former members told the Enquirer.

Additionally, women were no longer allowed to wear slacks or pant suits, and tops were not to reveal more than three-finger widths from the chin on down. Women have to remain quiet during services unless called upon, former members said.

Burrick has declined to comment on Caskey’s arrests or his church’s policies toward women.

The Rev. William Wyne, pastor of Second Missionary Baptist Church, 485 N. Washington Ave. in Battle Creek, called reports about the church “disturbing.”

“When the person that God has placed in the church begins to act ungodly, that embarrasses God,” Wyne said.

Such edicts deviate from the spirit of Jesus, who was a nonconformist and associated with prostitutes and lepers, another pastor said.

“I think it’s a dangerous thing when you say, ‘You have to dress like this,’” said the Rev. Morris Anderson of 220-member Lakeview Baptist Church, 7 20th St. “People usually have good taste when they come to church. When you say women have to wear dresses and men can’t wear earrings, I think it’s missing what the gospel is about. I think it’s gone off the deep end down there.”

More of the article from The Battle Creek Enquirer here.

Just a show of hands… how many of you reading here at MMI have were brought up in a legalistic church? My guess is a good percentage. What caused you to break away?

Legalism is still alive and well in the church today. Take this follow-up report from a story we told you earlier about. The church is only about 30 minutes from me just across the Michigan state line. But they are making major waves...

Comments

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Another Jeff on Thu, August 09, 2007

OK folks….I need some help. I’ve been visiting this site for a couple of years. I’ve posted a few times. This is a great blog for debating topics. I’ve posted about my struggles with my journey. But now….I guess you could say I’m at a critical juncture. I’m tired on this journey and really need a revival. I’m ready to walk away because of the way I see Christians behaving. Things that I see occur everyday in the church. I admit that I’ve not nurtured my relationship with God as I should. I own that responsibility. But I’m weary and burdened and even a little fed up. I need your prayers and I need them badly. Help me out here folks. Any spiritual advice you can offer would be a blessing…..
Camey on Thu, August 09, 2007

Another Jeff, (Jeff)

You are being lifted up in prayer. I appreciate your vulernability in posting as you did. Many, many here can relate…. even if they never speak up.

As for advice? Sometimes it takes truly a crisis of faith to help us remove all the junk and get back to HIM. You do not walk the road alone….

Get on your knees, get on your face, search His word, and let God carry you until you are able to walk with His help.

Camey
Leonard on Thu, August 09, 2007

Another Jeff,

Sometimes what we need Jeff is a nap. A really long nap and some good food. I would reccomend you take a few days away if possible and sleep until you do not need to sleep anymore. If that is an hour or 2 days, Do what it takes to catch up. Onc you have doen that I reccomend some healthy and tasty food. Eat well and get your refreshed feet under you.

Once you have done this, journal some thoughts to God. Talk to him and ask hime to reveal places where you have grown and places where you have matured this past year or two. Write these down and thank God.

Next spend dome tima asking God which of your gifts need a bit of fanning to flame. Ask God if you are working out of your strengths or weaknesses. You need to work from strengths or you will exhaust your soul.

I encourage you to ask God to reveal any hidden sins, any unforgivness, any root of bitterness, any broken relationships, and see what his word says to do about this stuff.

Finally, get some one on one accountability. Get yourself to a trusted advisor. I am glad you asked for help and prayer here, but you actually need someonen you can confide in and ask for counsel who is closer to you. I will be praying for you brother.
Another Jeff on Thu, August 09, 2007

Leonard & Camey,

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement, prayer, and direction. It is greatly appreciated. Leonard, I know what you mean about the trusted advisor. I’ve hard time with that because my family and I have only lived in this area for a year and we are still struggling to find a church home. That makes a difficult situation even harder. Thank you again.
Mike on Thu, August 09, 2007

‘Modesty’ is a separate issue on which I am sure we all agree, but ....church is not a job interview - at a job interview I am trying to impress somebody - somebody who will only get to know me superficially. At church I am not trying to impress anybody and the One that I really want to please already knows me far more intimately than my clothing will ever indicate. And how does wearing ‘smart’ attire (e.g. jacket, collar, tie) show respect to God in any way - God has shown us explicitly what he desires from us and it doesn’t include any mention of a dress code (even in the ‘reverence’ of the OT worship that someone mentioned). Doing things that fit your culture and claiming that this shows a reverence for God is bizarre.
Steve Riches on Thu, August 09, 2007

Hi Mike:

I think you are quite right about a dress code and the cultural issue.

If you’ve been following previous entries, you’ll note that I see the clothing issue as one of a need to have respect for each other, rather than of dressing to respect God; and wanting to ensure that we don’t distract each other from our purpose in gathering, (which is to worship), with what I’ve described previously as “extreme” choices in clothing.

I’ve also described this as seeking “moderation” rather than just “modesty”. I don’t see dress as an issue of trying to impress God, although I suppose that some may look at it that way, and I notice that the phrase “respect for God” does tend to keep recurring in some blog entries. Having said that, I see little merit in dressing sloppily in public in general, as some seem to like to do at church.

Be that as it may, I’ve suggested that something like this, in my opinion, should be a matter for each person to decide on independently, without a need for a written dress code, simply out of a desire to be considerate of each other. as we meet together to worship. And this attitude of moderation will also deal with any modesty issues at the same time.

Blessings,

Steve Riches
John Roe on Thu, August 09, 2007

My grandfather was a pastor and a denominational leader. Back in the late sixties and early seventies he was asked about his feelings on long hair on men and short skirts on women. His comment was, God did not call me to a ‘rag and bone’ ministry, He called me to reach the lost.

This is the first time that I have participated in the blogging process and I must admit that I may become a blog junkie (in moderation of course).

What has been interesting to me is my reaction to the comments that were made about the comments that I made. The more I read the comments here the more I realize that it is a matter of the heart. Some of us are very adamant about our positions, on both sides, some are here for fun, and some to get a handle on how we feel about the issue. There are some things that we will have to agree to disagree on. I for one wouldn’t feel comfortable in church in sloppy attire if there was an opportunity for me to wear better. Some of you said that you wouldn’t feel right in your church in a suit and tie. What ever the dress, just be there when ever possible. There are guys like Another Jeff that need you to show up and be there as an encourager and brother or sister in Christ. The christian life is so much more that food and drink and clothing. It is about life and death, blessing and cursing, love and hope. We all have much to learn from each other. I will hold out one hand to the casual crowd and one to the formal crowd and we can all walk together to seek and save the lost as we fulfill the great commission.
Tony Myles on Sat, August 11, 2007

Since I’ve pastored in both Hillsdale and Battle Creek, I can affirm this mentality stands out mainly because there isn’t much else of anything happening in those towns… especially Hillsdale. I think when a pastor has a commanding personality - good or bad - people follow accordingly because “maybe he’ll lead us somewhere… anywhere.”
Pastor on Thu, August 14, 2008

Labeling folks as “legalistic” who are concerned about the present and growing sensuality, disrespect, and narcissisism of our society is naieve at best and reflects a disconnect from Biblical truth to ones lifestyle. Teaching young people manners, how to dress appropriately, the discipline of personal grooming, and the Biblical principles of modesty, appropriateness, and gender differentiation is, indeed, challenging amid such attitudes as reflected by some. But maturity is always a challenge on every level. A quick look at most advanced jobs will reveal a very specific dress code. That’s real life. A quick look at Biblical truth about lifestyle issues reveals specifics about believers as distinct from the world. Whatever happened to “worldliness” in attitudes and appearance?
tactical rifle scope on Fri, October 31, 2008

I would like to propose a new version. Clothes do not play a decisive role determines behavior, or even if you want the eye. Gestures, smile, something subtle in the perception of the man - and clothing recedes to the background.
Bob Barnes on Fri, October 31, 2008

I hear several saying, “moderation.” I suspect that modesty would be a better word, however, at the congregation I am privileged to pastor, the rule is, “when you come to a service with us—clothing is required.” Going to church actually means meeting with the congregation wherever that may be. The church is not a building but rather a people. How absurd to deny people the opportunity to meet because of the clothing they wear. Jesus said, You will know them by their fruit,” not their clothing.

Peace and blessings.