“Women’s Tops Shall Not Reveal More Than Three Finger Widths from the Chin on Down”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Sun, July 29, 2007
- Viewed 181
- (71) comments so far
They share a faith and a calling, but some Battle Creek-area Baptist pastors have a hard time processing a Hillsdale County minister’s recent controversial actions at the pulpit.
Jason Burrick, pastor of Allen Baptist Church, remains at the center of a storm, which has included the arrests of 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey for trespassing June 17 and July 15 and what critics see as his chauvinistic view of women.
Hillsdale County Prosecutor Neal Brady twice dismissed the charges against Caskey, who chose to attend Sunday services after Burrick revoked her church membership. Brady said Caskey was not being disruptive.
The ensuing stir has highlighted vast differences within the Baptist faith, which has at least 20 umbrella organizations, about what a woman’s role should be.
Several area Baptist church bar women from leadership roles.
“There are all kinds of shades of Baptists,” said Marvin Savola, pastor of one such church, North Athens Baptist Church, 2020 M Drive S. in Athens.
Local Baptist ministers said they don’t know Burrick or Allen Baptist, which is an independent church, but they have read published reports.
Since Burrick arrived almost two years ago, women in the tiny Allen Township church have been removed from office positions and forbidden to assist with communion, former members told the Enquirer.
Additionally, women were no longer allowed to wear slacks or pant suits, and tops were not to reveal more than three-finger widths from the chin on down. Women have to remain quiet during services unless called upon, former members said.
Burrick has declined to comment on Caskey’s arrests or his church’s policies toward women.
The Rev. William Wyne, pastor of Second Missionary Baptist Church, 485 N. Washington Ave. in Battle Creek, called reports about the church “disturbing.”
“When the person that God has placed in the church begins to act ungodly, that embarrasses God,” Wyne said.
Such edicts deviate from the spirit of Jesus, who was a nonconformist and associated with prostitutes and lepers, another pastor said.
“I think it’s a dangerous thing when you say, ‘You have to dress like this,’” said the Rev. Morris Anderson of 220-member Lakeview Baptist Church, 7 20th St. “People usually have good taste when they come to church. When you say women have to wear dresses and men can’t wear earrings, I think it’s missing what the gospel is about. I think it’s gone off the deep end down there.”
More of the article from The Battle Creek Enquirer here.
Just a show of hands… how many of you reading here at MMI have were brought up in a legalistic church? My guess is a good percentage. What caused you to break away?
Legalism is still alive and well in the church today. Take this follow-up report from a story we told you earlier about. The church is only about 30 minutes from me just across the Michigan state line. But they are making major waves...
Comments
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Steve Riches on Mon, July 30, 2007
Several people have commented, quite rightly, that this story about the legalistic pastor is not about a dress code, and it certainly raises serious issues about the pastor in question.
However, while most of us quite sadly agree that the extreme behaviour of this pastor is wrong and overly reactionary, the topic of how to dress for corporate worship is still worthy of our consideration and discussion.
Personally, I think that beachwear is better worn on the beach, and sportswear is more suited to recreational activities. Someone mentioned about the trend toward guys having shirt-tails hang out. I’ve witnessed this at a church service, and it strikes me as a kind of deliberate statement of dis-respect. They know that some people will find it offensive and distracting, just like baseball caps, as an example, are found by some to be offensive. Yet the choice to wear controversial clothing is made as if in defiance.
Clothing with logos or sayings is obviously distracting to anyone trying to focus on worship. The whole purpose of those who market clothing with logos is to make you think about their product. Simply put, it’s distracting to worship.
Just as importantly, the same people who choose to dress shabbily for a worship service, or with a studied and purposeful casualness or messiness would seldom consider dressing the same way for a job interview.
Why is our worship together worthy of less respect than a job interview? Is not respecting each other when we gather to worship worthy of the same level of respect as a job interview?
And while a suit and tie may be a bit extreme also, it at least suggests a level of respect for the occasion that is not offered by flip flops, a baseball cap and a sports sweater featuring a beer or rock group logo or other secular comment.
We come to a church service to worship the Lord and to lead each other in worshipping Him. Any things that we do, say, or wear which distract each other from this sole purpose are entirely unsuitable for the occasion. We don’t need a dress code for this. We need only to prayerfully seek God’s guidance and wisdom to make suitable choices.
Purposefully defiant, stubborn, extreme, and controversial statements in our choices of clothing should not be given a place in a house of worship. And despite the very bad leadership by this pastor, modesty of dress (for women) can often be an issue that cannot be totally ignored either. We all, however, should be seeking less controversial happy mediums that will avoid alienating any members of the body of Christ. This, too, should not require a dress code.
The principle of avoiding offending each other is clearly taught to us in scripture. Perhaps it is this that we need to revisit in our thoughts as we prepare to dress for worship next time.
Blessings,
Steve Riches
Derek on Tue, July 31, 2007
Steve—I think you expressed the concern that we in church leadership have concerning the worship service. Then main concern that I have is distractions. I want to remove as many barriers between people and God in the context of worship as possible.
A person’s dress can become a distraction and even church seems to have an unspoken dress code. I think it is responsible for everyone in the church to adhere to seems to be the standard for their particular church.
There have been a few comments about dress codes being primarily for women. I noted earlier that in my youth ministry days this was particularly a woman issue. The guys in our youth ministry were not trying to wear clothes that would reveal the shape of their bodies, some of the girls were.
It that context, I did talk to the guys about “making a covenant with their eyes.” Guys do need to get their act (and hormones) together and quit looking at the girls at church as sexual objects and insted see them as sisters. Nevertheless, we men need help for the ladies! Covering the 4Bs certainly helps!
Derek
Camey on Tue, July 31, 2007
Recently I asked the girls/women in my group to share about why they had dressed the way they had that particular Sunday morning. 4 out of 5 said something like, “I wanted to feel sexy.” “I like to look sexy.”
Walking down the hallway with them, I kept a close watch on the men as they were walking past. Ooooops…. there went a whole bunch of eyes.
Later on I was in the ladies’ room - the conversation went something like this:
Woman #1: “Girl, you are looking mighty hot today. You not only had your hubby’s attention but several other guys as well.”
Woman #2: “My husband asked me to wear this today. I feel so under-dressed. Almost like I’m naked.”
Woman #1: “But if you husband wants you to dress that way, you should. It’ll keep him from looking elsewhere.”
Ummmmm. Wrong. That husband was one of the ones was neck almost broke turning to look at the girls/women as they walked by.
Okay…. To paint this picture even more clear….. The girls/women in my group that day were all under 21. One had just turned 18 a few months ago. They all have babies. The women in the ladies’ room are both in their late 40’s. The men that I noticed the most - in their 50’s.
Personally, I believe the whole “dress” issue isn’t just about women. IT is about men too. Even more so I believe that it is about the conditions of the heart. Should one really want to feel or look sexy when coming to worship God? Should a husband want other guys to look at his wife and think, “Dang, she’s sexy. That lucky dog?”
Derek on Tue, July 31, 2007
Camey—
You are right to say that it is both a male and female issue. It seems to me that in our culture we have merged “feminine beauty” with “sexy.” This has left girls in the church thinking to be beautiful means that they have to dress sexy. I think we need to help women (and men) renew their minds and help them see that feminine beauty is so much more than sexuality. Really a woman’s sexuality should be reserved for her husband, a thought that husbands and wives need to understand. My wife is drop-dead gorgeous and she knows how to carry herself with beauty that isn’t overtly sexy.
Derek
bishopdave on Tue, July 31, 2007
Camey,
You hit the nail right on the head. Squarely.
DanielR (a different Daniel) on Tue, July 31, 2007
Should we expect or require that people dress better (more respectfully) for church than they do in their everyday lives? Should we expect people to have nicer, more respectful, attire to wear to church?
I’ve come to respect our senior pastor’s desire for people to dress for church as they do for their day-to-day living. The desire for them to dress and behave on Sunday morning the same as they do the rest of the week. People aren’t expected to dress to show they respect the church institution, they’re expected to dress in a way that shows they respect themselves.
We have had some young ladies come to church Sunday morning dressed inappropriately like they were going to nightclub Saturday night (possibly they had come to church directly from the nightclub?). This was seen as an insight into their lives and an opportunity to talk to them about their dress and appropriate modesty, not just for church but in their lives in general.
In this atmosphere if someone wears something inappropriate, it’s something that is inappropriate for them to be wearing at all not just inappropriate to wear to church. This can provide some insight into how people see themselves and what may be going on in a person’s life. Most people take this to heart and wear what they wear every day. Then we take that and turn it around to say the way we dress on Sunday is the way we dress the rest of the week, and the way we act and exhibit our faith on Sunday is way we should act the rest of the week. Jesus should be at the forefront of your mind and should guide your actions 24/7, not just on Sunday morning.
My 2 cents on the issue.
Steve Riches on Tue, July 31, 2007
I appreciate your thoughts, Daniel, regarding the discomfort for everyone else created by people who choose to attend church in clothing that looks as if they’ve just come from a nightclub.
But perhaps the question here, if in fact, they have just come from a nightclub, would be whether the lifestyle of the nightclub, even apart from the clothing issue, is a good idea in the first place for someone who values scriptural principles enough to want to worship God. But I guess that’s another topic altogether.
Also, to me, the issue of dressing respectfully for church is not one of dressing to respect the institution of church, but rather dressing to respect each other with regard to the purpose for which we have gathered together, which ought to be God-centred worship.
In addition, when we dress in our daily lives, we do wear different clothes to suit different occasions, so it’s not a case of dressing the same for worship as we do during the week. We vary our attire even throughout the week. A suit and tie on the beach doesn’t work very well either for swimming or beach volleyball. Similarly some clothing doesn’t work very well in the context of helping each other to focus on our corporate worship together.
And I wholeheartedly agree that both our customary dress and behaviour ought to reflect our values throughout the week, not just on Sunday, despite some necessary modification of clothing to suit specific occasions. I’m not sure, however, that a nightclub lifestyle should ever be one of those choices for a Christian. I realize that it is possible not to get drunk, use drugs, or behave immorally while attending a nightclub, but such activities tend to go hand in hand with these events, which are definitely of questionable character for a Christian. Not only would attending require special discipline on the part of a believer, but it would expose us to potential dangers also (e.g. date rape drugs, etc.).
And even resisting the usual temptations that are a standard part of nightclub life would certainly set a Christian apart from a majority of those in attendance. So, why would a Christian want to attend, but at the same time try to separate themselves from all of the usual, and typically immoral behaviours that characterize these events?
The nightclub sideline is a bit off-topic here, but I thought it was worth a comment, as it pertains to dress choices in general and dressing to meet together for worship in particular.
In summary, I guess I’m a bit traditional on this one. Attending a good show on occasion doesn’t seem unreasonable to me, however, avoiding the typical nightclub lifestyle in general, I think, is a wise choice. And certainly, I would advocate avoiding dressing provocatively for such on occasion also. I realize that for women, clothing choices are somewhat more challenging. But a desire for moderation should always govern all of our choices. And when making these choices, we should always keep in mind that, as believers, we are in the world, but not of the world.
Blessings,
Steve Riches
Peter Hamm on Tue, July 31, 2007
(sarcasm alert) It is entirely possible that people who dress like sinners in our churches are unbelieving pagan sinner hedonists…
If anyone is just too uncomfortable with having them in your church, please send them to ours. We want them bad.
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif
(end sarcasm alert)
Steve Riches on Tue, July 31, 2007
Hi Peter:
I have been thinking all along that the people we have been talking about with reference to inappropriate dress are believers and regular attenders, perhaps even some who are participating in leadership roles on the platform.
I, of course, welcome all to attend, regardless of their dress. We, however, shouldn’t dress equally inappropriately just to make visitors comfortable. Nor should we focus on a visitor’s choice of clothing when his or her spiritual welfare is our primary interest.
Jesus associated with sinners. But he didn’t either condone or emulate their behaviours. I, too, would welcome all who choose to attend. But I won’t dress shabbily or inappropriately in order to help the lowest common denominator in society to feel comfortable. In fact, if they feel too comfortable, they may not realize their spiritual need.
But for those of us who have already embraced the teaching of God’s Word and are seeking to live according to the principles it teaches, such as moderation, love, and so on, we ought to consider how we affect each other at our worship gatherings and act and dress accordingly, especially those of us who are entrusted with such important roles as that of leading others to worship God.
Steve Riches
Brian on Tue, July 31, 2007
Daniel said: “Should we expect or require that people dress better (more respectfully) for church than they do in their everyday lives? Should we expect people to have nicer, more respectful, attire to wear to church? “
My response…. if you think about what you just said logically, then you would realize that the attire worn in any given church, on any given Sunday is going to be refelecting of the culture and the communinty in which your church resides, and secondly, will be affected by what demographic you are trying to reach. Not all “sinners and heathens” hang out at night clubs, bars, etc… actually most of the unbelievers i know work in corporate america, play golf, live in the burbs, attend fine arts events, etc… I guarantee you that those people dress differently everytime they go somewhere than they do at home… they “dress for the occassion”…
So the question then should be… what “occassion” is a church worship service. Anyone who comes from the poorest of poor black communities will tell you that no matter how poor you are, you still dress up for church - it is appropriate.
I am curious to hear feedback. I am getting tired of church leaders imposing their Macintosh, trans-hippie values on the whole church culture or pastors in some circles assuming that “one size fits all”… it is very judgemental in my mind. In Urban areas there is room for all types and styles. In rural areas, it has to be more “middle of the road” due to non-homogenous demographic realities.
We’ve got pastors and church leaders taking pride in the fact that they “get to” preach in jeans and a tee-shirt. I don’t care what you preach in if it fits the demogrphaic you are trying to reach - but I have a real problem with the pride and the judgementalism of those who are more conservative in their dress. There are communities, both rich and poor, where the more formal dress “code”, unwritten, is much more affective at reaching XYZ community.
So while I don’t agree with the pastor’s method or even his standards that this orginial article was address - I am concerned that we are assuming he is stuck in the 50’s and is abusing women.
Curious…
shadowette on Tue, July 31, 2007
Brian, I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone assuming that the pastor in question is “stuck in the 50’s” or “abusing women”. However, the policies that he is calling for, specifically targeting women’s dress code, and women in leadership roles, and women not speaking during services, does the beg the question of why women only? And in this cultural atmosphere, it doesn’t fit well. How will they reach women for Christ if they’re not allowed to attend worship b/c their clothes don’t fit in the dress code?
Camey on Tue, July 31, 2007
Wow. This one is really all over the place. At this rate it could easily reach 100 posts. Maybe without really answering the question asked…...
Wait? What was the question again? Oh yeah… Something about monkeys right?
But not about monkeys coming to church naked? Or monkeys who drink and then come to church naked?
Okay. Here’s my answer to the question originally asked by Todd: I don’t like being kept in a cage on display.
nora on Tue, July 31, 2007
Brian, I don’ think there is any question that he is abusing women. He refused to allow women to serve communion, for Pete’s sake. And unless his target group is the Amish, I doubt he formed his dress code to “reach the culture”.
DanielR (a different Daniel) on Wed, August 01, 2007
Brian, you said: “Anyone who comes from the poorest of poor black communities will tell you that no matter how poor you are, you still dress up for church - it is appropriate.”
You are correct that this attitude is widespread. And that’s one thing I have a problem with, the attitude that some people and some churches have that people need to “dress up” for church, the idea that people should show their respect for God by dressing up nice for church on Sunday. I believe we should show our respect for God by living a Godly life and practicing what is preached on Sunday every day of the week. Let’s worry less about how people are dressed on Sunday and more about how they’re living the other 6 days of the week. Let’s not encourage people to be different on Sunday than they are the rest of the week. Church is not a Sunday morning social club, let’s not encourage people to be Sunday morning Christians, let’s encourage them to be Christians 24/7.
I don’t think we should expect people, especially poor people, to spend money on a nice wardrobe for church when that money could be better spent in other ways.
I’m not saying we should “dress down” for church, but wear what reflects your lifestyle and culture. If you’re a jeans and t-shirt type, that’s fine as long as it is appropriate jeans and t-shirts. If you’re poor and your clothes are not GQ, that’s OK, how’s your heart? Do you have a heart for Jesus? If you’re a suit and tie guy, you’re welcome too. I think that by taking the emphasis off of how we’re dressed on Sunday we can better put the emphasis on how we’re dressing and what we’re doing 7 days a week.
Jim in NJ on Wed, August 01, 2007
I would agree that dress styles are more culturally based than spiritually based except in the area of modesty. I have seen our church change gradually from a church where most men wore ties and/or sport coats to a church where the dress is more casual. What I have not seen is a drop-off in any way to reaching the lost, preaching the gospel, or training future Christian worlers (our own church vision). In the cooler weather, some men still choose to wear coats and ties. many others wear clean jeans and a pullover shirt. Those who obsess about what others wear may be wasting energy that could be better used elsewhere. Isn’t what is inside a person more important than what is outside? I have attended churches in the past where I saw people more concerned with what they were wearing and what others were wearing than what was being taught. Needless to say I don’t go there any more.
As for women in the church, my denomination does not ordain women, but women serve on our church administrative board (two as officers) and lead and serve in various ministries. It is a scriptural interpretation that I agree with although I don’t see it as one of my core beliefs. I do think this pastor has an issue with the place of women, We can only hope that his congregation will read the word and be convicted that he is wrong and take action. It is one of the weaknesses of some independent churches that there are opportunities for abuse of authority.
By the way, I was never a hippie even back in the 70’s. I use Microsoft Windows and even used to have an occasional beer or wine before developing diabetes.
On to 100!
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