Group Opposed to Bellevue Leadership Forms a Board of Directors
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, January 29, 2007
- Viewed 160
- (66) comments so far
We’ve talked about the Bellevue situation numerous times (here, here, and here) at MMI. We’ve also talked about the growing propencity of people to air their grievances with church leadership over the web through websites and blogs.
Again, someone ups the stakes with an official, chartered group within a church taking their fight for ‘integrity’ public. How will churches deal with individuals who feel “compelled to sound its voice, take necessary measures, and use all available resources for seeking the truth concerning questionable events and actions”
Admirable goals, I guess. But to do so publically… I’m not sure.
More from their website:
Integrity Does Count, Inc., (IDC) consisting entirely of Bellevue Baptist Church (BBC) members, announces its charter and aims to bring truth to both the unanswered questions as well as to the non-disclosed facts and records of the current administration. Members of IDC, Inc. have been carefully following the events as they have occurred over the past 18 months at Bellevue Baptist Church under the leadership of Senior Pastor, Dr. Steve Gaines.
Integrity Does Count, Inc. will hold a church-wide meeting away from the campus of BBC on or before February 16, 2007, where it hopes to address the above concerns as well as to establish a congregation-approved framework for church governance that will include up-to-date bylaws and regulations. An attempt was made to seek approval for an on-campus meeting. A further attempt was made to obtain a mailing list of church membership in order to inform each member of the upcoming, church-wide meeting. Both attempts were futile, and IDC’s requests were denied by BBC staff members.
The church administration has willfully neglected to uphold the State of Tennessee Statute, T.C.A. 48-66-101 et. seq., that governs Not-For-Profit organizations and leaves this incorporated group of BBC wondering what the church administration stands to gain by locking its doors and closing its books.
Realizing the necessity for following God’s design as illustrated in Matthew 18, and missing the fellowship of faithful members who are choosing to worship in sister churches, Integrity Does Count, Inc. is even more compelled to sound its voice, take necessary measures, and use all available resources for seeking the truth concerning questionable events and actions within Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova, Tennessee.
A few questions, I have…
1. When does this kind of thing (if ever) become necessary?
2. When is it time to just let go and leave?
3. How, particularly in a Baptist, congregational rule church, does a group all of a sudden become convinced that nearly every leader in their church (most of whom they’ve elected) are all evil and lack integrity?
4. If you’re a member of the leadership in this church, what do you do with members who go on the record and start a splinter group from within the church to fight your leadership?
5. Is anything EVER gained for the cause of Christ through this kind of exchange?
Please understand… I am by no means saying that all that has happened (particularly with the recent staff firing) was done correctly or incorrectly; and I’m not taking sides on which side is actually correct… my question is more: how far should a congregant (or a group of congregants) go to get the outcome they feel is correct? And how much of this is fueled by a ‘this is MY church’, ‘this is OUR church’ type thing?
Please… help me understand better be telling me what you think? Take a few minutes to answer the above questions. I think it’s valuable to do so, if only because this very well could happen in your church in the near future. It seems to be a growing trend…
Thanks,
Yes, that's correct... there is now a group of members of Bellevue Baptist that has formed it's own group officially opposing the church leadership. On their new website (integritydoescount.com) they say... "It is not uncommon for leadership changes within a church to result in some discontent and even discord within its membership. But, for a group of members inside a church of 30,000 to incorporate themselves, form a board of directors, and set out for the sole purpose of instilling accountability in its own church government and leadership is unusual and perhaps unprecedented."
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Doyne Cantrell on Mon, January 29, 2007
Dejavue.
It does not matter what the size of the church, this can be devastating to the effectiveness of the ministry the church is called to do. Of course the size may determine how it is handled, but the truth is, it is not going to do the community of believers there or the community they serve any good at all.
While we all seem to be concerned about the effect this will have on the body and how unbiblical this is, (and rightly so) I am also concerned for the impact this will and already has on the leadership. Though I don’t know all the specific details, I would say that there seems to be lack of regard for the Biblical offices of Pastor and Deacon in the church. This is not something unique to this particular church. There are many churches that have and are experienceing this same situation, only on a smaller scale. Nevertheless, it is still just as devasting to the church and the body of Christ as a whole. My question is; How can we, as fellow pastors and leaders, minister to the leadership of Bellevue. It is very difficult to endure in ministry when there are those who oppose your leadership openly and are not willing to accept that God has gifted the church with the leadership it has. That does not mean that the leadership is infallible, it means that God is the one who should deal with them.
The true solution to this situation is very simple. The Senior Pastor needs to call the church together for an extended time of prayer and fasting. They should all seek GODS direction and everyone should allow Him to lead. They must follow Gods leadership or there will never be a complete solution to this problem.
I for one am prying for the leadership to do as God leads them and I know that others are praying as well.
.......... Just my thoughts.
Rick on Mon, January 29, 2007
I don’t know this church or live near it. So, I have only an opinion.
From what I can tell learning about it this morning, this presenting church conflict can be viewed from many angles but in fact reveals at the core a ‘legitimation of authority’ crisis with political, legal and spiritual dimensions. When large congregations with extensive property, legacy holdings, not to mention large staff and laity following, have a group of vocal laity questioning their leadership’s authority to lead, the spiritual power of the Gospel can quickly be supplanted by doubt, suspicion, and subterfuge. On the other hand, questioning the right of leadership to lead is always a live issue at any institution where people gather.
Large insitutions, even government, are particularly vulnerable to legitimation crisis issues and need leadership staff who can maintain and build credibility. For instance, right now America has a President who has lost most of his authority with the American public regarding his policy on Iraq because the vast majority of America does not trust his decision making (regardless of whether he was right or not, this is the political reality). If an additional crisis was added to his plate, he would very probably be impeached.
Getting back to Bellvue’s crisis, in comes in the context of national history. Ever since Jimmy Swaggert’s indiscression and Jim Baker’s fall, not to mention the Catholic church abuse scandal, there has been a process of high profile Christian leaders being dealt with severely when there was a coverup related to potential or illicit sexual activity. It seems to me that this has never been balanced easily or well against our Biblical heritage of honoring Moses and David, two patriarchal figures of faith who both committed murder.
What’s my bottom line? How we treat each other when we find out about moral failure, and how we change the subject back to the Kingdom of God, is at least as important to the Kingdom as whether something occured 17 years ago in this Bellvue Pastor’s life. I suggest that this church needs a period of “holy convocation” where people en mass pray, repent, and seek after a spiritual revival where God’s manaifest presence turns this mess into an opportunity for confession, grace, forgiveness, and reconciliation. Ultimately, some or all of the Staff will need to go, as probably do all of the opposing church members, to another church where they can stop reliving the psycho drama that has now taken over their lives. This church needs a fresh start. God help the eventual new Senior pastor and team to bring healing and reconciliation and salvage what can be salvaged. No one should want to have this psycho drama and legitimation crisis go on any longer than need be. It should be replaced with a time of holy focus on God and a time of public renewal and prohetic word and teaching, with times of prayer and fasting.
On the macrocosmic and Kingdom scale, God has said that judgemnt will begin with his house and then move to the world. If we beleive the end times are coming near, there will be a continual exposing of all that God wants to expose. And he will oppose pastors and Presidents and corporations who do not follow His will, just like He will deal with errant laity. We all must humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God, because all of us fall short of His glory.
Chris Gilliam on Mon, January 29, 2007
Todd-
I think another few questions should be added to the fray.
1. Have we started making (sub-conscience) our buildings and heritage God thus breaking Commandments 1-2?
2. Did the members truly listen to the Teachings from their previous pastor, or simply worship the fact that there was a lot going on at the big church?
3. In Answer to Question 5: Could this be God removing his hand from a previously dynamic church (Rev 2.5)? If this is the case then God is honored when his name is no longer taken in vain Command 3.
4. Should we pray for a Pride breaking, every individual heart exposing, gut wrenching, Act 5 type Powerful Holy spirit revival in our lives first and then for all churches of all strips who claim the name of Christ?
5. God closed His own Temple for misrepresentation does he not also have the right, and responsibility to close (regardless of the fashion) his churches also?
I don’t presume to have the answers for these but I have been thinking these thoughts in recent years based on my observations and even Barn’s research where only 9% of professing believers have a Biblical world view. I too am grieved. I signed on to Follow Jesus and have been disappointed by most of the “institutions and folk” who claim His name. I pray that my life does not blaspheme his name. And I can disciple others likewise.
Pastor Ken Davy on Mon, January 29, 2007
I think there are valid points on both sides. On what is the opposition basing it’s claim that the leadership is not complying with the regulations for 501-c-3 status? Address it! Are the books sequestered? Why? The books of a church should always be open to the membership.
This is not to suggest that the leader should not be the one to make the final decisions. That is NOT a Biblical model for church governance. No leader in the history of God’s people was ever called a president, deriving his power from the will of the people. God’s leaders derive their direction from the will of God and they have to answer for the way they follow that leading. No amount of pressure from the membership can modify this truth. God is going to look at pastors on the judgement day and ask how they followed His leading. I really don’t think He’ll be that interested in whether or not the congregation wanted to do something else. The Nation of Israel wanted Moses to take them back to Egypt., as I recall.
My point it is that whatever God has told you to do, do it! And be open about why you’re doing it and let everyone see how the books look along the way. And if questions arise, deal with them head on and immmediately. The main thing coming between pastors and congreagations today is communication. There isn’t enough of it. God wrote us 66 books to let us know how he wants us to conduct His business. In addition to this, He grants each one of us a private audience every time we ask. Certainly, we must set more finite boundaries, as we are finite creatures. However, we should strive to communicate just as openly so there can be no misuderstandings.
To those questioning your leadership I would only say, examine yourselves as to your true motives. If you seek to serve God better, then carry on. If you seek to diminish your pastor’s authority over you, then you are in error. The church is not a democracy. Christ is the head and we who are called to lead are His subordinates. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say anything about the members of a church voting on what the leader should do. If you feel your leader is in error, show him why you feel that way. And then go to God TOGETHER to seek the answer! You show me one place in the Bible where God allowed the people to depose a spiritual leader who was honestly trying to do his best for God. Your pastor is responsible for you. Read Timothy if you don’t think so. He will be judged for how he led you. He deserves every bit of help you can give him. If you have something legitimate, press on. If you just want to go back to Egypt because you like onions instead of manna, think again.
I was deposed by a group who thought they knew better than God what I was supposed to be doing and how better to spend our money. I didn’t communicate well enough and I wasn’t open enough and it was my undoing. Don’t make the same mistake.
Josh on Mon, January 29, 2007
Individualism. These problems are the effect of individulaism and radical pride that is consuming our country and our churches. If someone doesn’t like something or has a complaint then it becomes a divisive issue. Why should we expect the church to be any different than the people in the culture? Wait a minute…I think we should expect the church to be different, but we are people in the culture. We are supposed to be the “called out ones.” I think this will continue to escalate as we individualize and customize our experiences in culture. This is the root. How do we deal with it? This tragedy of distractions the enemy has brought to us and we have brought on ourselves is crippling us. We must choose to stop the politics and start loving and serving the poor and the oppressed. Until then the culture will never take the church seriously.
LEC on Mon, January 29, 2007
If what is said is true about the Minister of Music being forced out then Gaines DEFINITELY needs to go. Where did pastors get the idea that they are the ONLY ones called by God to a church? God calls EVERY minister to a church, and pastor had better be absolutely sure that his actions against a fellow minister are the based on clear mandate from God and not because HE has decided it’s “time for someone to go”. That is pride and arrogance at its worst. “Only I know the will of God. Only I know wha’ts right for this church. ‘I am the pastor.’” This kind of controlling spirit is completely counter to the under-shepherd servant leadership that is supposed to be the model. He cannot possibly know or control everything. Be the pastor. Do the preaching. But let those who are called by God and by the church to other ministers to DO their ministry. The best pastor I ever knew said it was his job to lead the church, to find the best people to lead with him, and then to stay out of their way and let them perform their God-called ministry. Amen to that.
Cody on Mon, January 29, 2007
Lori and Lane’s comments reveal much about the problem at hand. Underneath all of this mess is the mistaken idea that Christ’s church is a democracry. It is not. As American’s in particular, we have woven many our concepts of democracry into church leadership. The church, Chist tell us is “(His to) establish, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
The church, Christ’s own family, His own body, is a THEOCRACY not a democracry.
Saddly the SBC in particular, in my experience, has furthered the cause of existence by opposition and division rather than the growth of Christ’s church for many years and perfected such divisiveness through it’s focus on democractic polity rather than submission to God’s appointed and annointed leadership.
I have not witnessed healthy division anywhere. Christ calls for unity in His family. Period. We can have unity without having to agree on every point. Diagreement without disharmony. If the church was focused on the purposes of winning the lost, loving God with all it’s being and loving others the same it would remain constantly busy with things that make an eternal difference.
Is the rebellion at this church making an eternal difference? None of us can say. We do not sit in the judgment seat. But those in rebellion, are certainly not using the time, talent and treasure that God has gifted His church with to make an eternal difference.
Rebellious sheep are not really sheep are they? They hear no master’s voice, Christ calls His church His flock. Sheep know and follow their master’s voice. If the rebellious sheep at a church do not hear the voice of God’s annointed and appointed one then they should follow David’s example and leave the kingdom quietly. When Saul threw his spear at David - David had a number of possible choices - he was after all annointed by Samuel, he was very popular, he could have run out screaming “look at the injustice” “join me in overthrowing Saul!” or he could have - being a pretty good shot - thrown sprear back right through Saul - he could have met in secret and then incorporated publically a band dissenters to take Saul down…but what did David do? HE LEFT QUIETLY. It’s a powerful example in scripture to follow. Christ said “as for you - follow me.” What else should we be concerned about doing? Read Gene Edwards A Tale of Three Kings. For me, it shed more light on the hurt from disobeying God’s lordship than anything besides scripture.
James on Mon, January 29, 2007
Good morning Todd;
Again you have provided something brand new to my exposure of what lengths we Christians will go to, to prove to the world we are really a mess.
We have lost the vision of our primary purpose. No doubt there are issues of integrity and Character. However, It seems that a loss of vision and purpose turns our resourses inward and upon ourselves, instead of reaching the loss. In a quirky way it reminds of the horrific ideal the germans had under Hitler with the “ethnic” cleansing mantra. And his government of spies, assasins and secret police was the undoing of his “empire”. What ever happened to GRACE, FORGIVENESS, RESTORATION? We’re so busy watching our for the jot and tittle that we leave the weightier things of God’s law of love totally abandoned.
What did the apostle Paul say in Gal. 5:14 - 15 “For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “love others as you love yourself. But if instead of showing love among yourselves you are always critical and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of ruining each other.”
Jesus said that the Phariees “...strained and gnat and swallowed a camel.” It seems the gnat of finding the “truth”” has swallowed the camel of carnality, selfishness, and pride in one gulp.
I don’t think there is room in the church for a religious gestapo! Do we need accountability, restoration, correction? Absolutely, continually! But not under the guise of the law, but under the direction of His Love.
Help us Jesus, please!
Walking In Memphis on Mon, January 29, 2007
“Again, someone ups the stakes with an official, chartered group within a church taking their fight for ‘integrity’ public. “
This my friends is NOT something new or different. Nor is it going to be the last time we grieve over the picture that we as Christians…the called out ones…are giving a lost world.
All you have to do is look right down the street and you will find that Germantown went through the exact same thing. The BBC website uses the same links to same sites and articles like “Culture Crashing”, makes the same comments about the “evil” Rick Warren, and even quotes the same Tennessee statue to create a non profit so that phone numbers and address info can be taken and used for calls and mail outs (just wait…it’s coming). If you know about either situation you might even notice that some of the same names are even used in both places. When Germantown came crashing down to the ground (and I can assure you that it did) who did they use to stop the bleeding in the staff area other than the very people that were jumping off the Bellevue ship. They have now hired at least 4 former BBC staffers including the much praised ex BBC music minister Dr. Whitmire. After losing more than 70% of its congregation in a span of three months, the only growth Germantown has seen is that of the angry Bellevue members moving over. It’s like watching Wife Swap The Church Edition. The similarities even go down to the much talked about president of Mid America Seminary, Dr. Spradlin, who caught much flack after publicly chastising Dr. Gaines. Do a little research and you will find that this is the same Dr. Spradlin who allowed the non profit Germantown group to hold their rallies at his seminary and even took a donation from them after their battle was ended…the same one who was elected interim pastor of Germantown. Crazy huh?
Looks to me that Bellevue seems to have picked up the same play book and is running the same offense. An offense that you can actually now go and purchase for the low low cost of $21 at this web site: http://gbcsaved.com/. Don’t believe me??? Go check it out for yourself…you might not want to eat first because what you will find there will most like make you sick. And who do you think helped design that web site….none other than the same guy who is in charge of savingbellevue.com. It is all just too much….all I can do is shake my head and wonder where the “bride” is headed. I guess what really amazes me is that I think Bellevue and others going through this (yes, there will be many more) actually expect a different result.
So “How far should a congregant (or a group of congregants) go to get the outcome they feel is correct?”… I say that they WILL go so far as they can…throwing caution to the wind and throwing any and all who disagree under the bus to get what THEY want and what THEY believe is right. Which is funny because I believe, if I read correctly, this is exactly what they are accusing the pastors and people like Rick Warren of doing. I have now seen it first hand. It has nothing to do with Purpose Driven anything…it has everything to do with submitting to authority. How do you expect a person to fall under church discipline or authority who doesn’t believe that the church does in fact have any authority over them. “who are YOU to tell ME what to do.?”
And “How much of this is fueled by a ‘this is MY church’, ‘this is OUR church’ type thing?” ...I believe all of it. We are witness to the beginnings of the battle of the generational gap. This is a culture war taking place on Holy Ground. Two sides are clashing…one who wants to go to church… their church done their way…just like it has always been…and another that desires to be the church…as they struggle to define just exactly what that means.
Oliver on Mon, January 29, 2007
people, lets not forget the context, a pastor who was commiting incest, he should have been arrested and thrown in jail. The problem is again we have another example of the corruption, immorality, and sickness that is prevasive within the american church today. As long as we keep insisting on hiring pastors for their charisma instead of the character, and programs instead of true discipleship, we will continue to reap what we have sown. As long as we keep sowing “innovation” we will reap this shallow, sick, disgusting mess which is called church. When is it time to leave? its been time for a while now, and many christians are realzing that the institutional church can no longer be supported. How many more messes do we have to endure before we realize the entire thing needs to be taken out back and put out of its misery! Most pulipts are filled with nancy-boy preachers who don’t know what the gospel is about and are doing their secretaries, lying to their church and stealing money while justifying it all. The institutional church needs to be abandoned for the failure that it has been for the last couple thousand years. Pastors needs to all be put out of their jobs sitting around all week long on their duffs, and get REAL jobs. People need to stop supporting and giving their money to keep these sick places functioning. All ministry can be done with out the help of the institutional programs we call church and without one more penny put in the offering plate!
Leonard on Mon, January 29, 2007
Oliver,
Not only are you wrong you are offensive. Your words lack wisdom, knowledge, understanding and frankly, God. The things you wrote are the writings of immaturity and foolishness.
Most pastors do not commit immorality as you assert, the are not “doing” their secretaries and for you to speak this way only shows ignorance.
Oliver on Mon, January 29, 2007
looks, lets be clear when we speak. It depends on what the leader is trying to do. First for all those still in the institution called church(and after all who wants to live in an institution the rest of their lives? so get out while you still have your sanity) anyway, for those still in the institution, if a pastor comes in to a traditional baptist church and tries to change it to a contemporary one without the churches support, good luck, you are asking for trouble (don’t throwing rocks at the bee hive and you are going to get stung). Most of the time that doesn’t work, you are better off starting from scratch or going where someone specifically wants that. Old churches usually don’t change, they just die. Second, if you are attending a mega-church where the pastor rules as a god and nobody can touch him because he is an icon that requires no accountability in his life, good luck too, you are better off leaving. If you are in a church like that, the internet is nice because at least now people have levarage and they won’ t just be silenced anymore. There is a place for them to let others know what is happeneing when the leadership gets out of control. But it will be a dirty battle and more people when threatened with their wallets and salaries and job will stop at nothing to silence the dissenters in a church, so again, realize you are messin with the bees and you will get stung.
Oliver on Mon, January 29, 2007
excuse me but according to the “Catholic review board on priestly abuse holds first meeting amid victim complaints,” Associated Press, 2002-JUL-30, as many as 46,000 cases of clergy sexual abuse was reported in the catholic church alone, close to 1,000 ministers were reported in news releases to have abused children in the protestant faith in one year alone. No granted, I shouldn’t have said all, but it is very prevasive. recent statistic show that as many as 90% of pastors view pornography on the internet, many more have affairs that stay secret. I can’t see how anyone doesn’t see this as a major problem. no offense ment!
Todd Rhoades on Mon, January 29, 2007
We get it, Oliver; but you’ve obviously been stung.
If you can’t discuss without all the inflamatory language and lumping every pastor into the same category (as well as churches, innovative or not); then I must (once again) ask you to refrain from posting here.
It just really adds nothing to the conversation.
Actually, it detracts from it; because no one else is willing to share.
So… politely… please knock it off.
Todd
Chris on Mon, January 29, 2007
Oliver- Context?
What is sad is that from my estimation (someone correct me if I am wrong) the saff member in question would have been 17 at the time of the offence and I have yet to see if the perosn he “molested” ( I use the term loosely) was a 15 year old concentual thing or legitimatly child rape. (the Legal term is nebulous) Don’t wrongly assume that I am week on sin but when someone flys an accusation the interpretation of the event is important. Two examples 1. It IS different if this was a 17 year old who had sex with a 15-16 year old who then later in life repented and was born again and now wants to rid self of self condemnation. 2. A Malicious 17 who is raping 6 year olds. The accusation out there implies for most people who are inindated with the recent media events and catholic priest that the second interp[retation is correct. This is malice! The fact that this person has not been arrested and that Dr. Gaines is demonstrating prudence in how to handle this (See 1 Tim 5.22 in context) leads me to believe the first may be true. If that is then neither you nor I am close enough to weigh on this and If we think we are then we are in danger. I ask in reference to Jesu comments “He who looks… HAS…? Who then can really to the nth degree to claim above reproach? Bilical Worldview is much need in our “christians” today.
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