“I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It, Then I Went to Hell”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, September 15, 2008
- Viewed 171
- (72) comments so far
You can watch the local news report here with an interview of the sign pastor. And you can read a story on Ray Boltz here
OK… how should the church tackle homosexuality? It seems to me that both of these approaches are dead wrong.
Todd
That's the text of a sign posted outside a Columbus, OH church last week. Obviously, this sign was a take off of (former CCM singer) Katie Perry's song titled "I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It".
I've been saying for a long time that I really think that homosexuality is THE big battleground in the evangelical church these days. And the past week was a good example.
For those who haven't yet heard, Christian singer Ray Boltz came 'out of the closet' last week. He decided to take his homosexuality public as he began a series of concerts in affirming churches. Boltz's quote: “If this is the way God made me, then this is the way I’m going to live. It’s not like God made me this way and he’ll send me to hell if I am who he created me to be … I really feel closer to God because I no longer hate myself.”
Those are the two extremes: First, lash out publically, openly and publically condemning all homosexuals to hell on the church sign; to openly being homosexual and rejoicing because that is the way God made you.
Comments
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Brent H on Mon, September 15, 2008
David,
Thanks for the clarification. It helps tremendously to see where you are coming from.
i agree that the Bible is the word of God, but my concern is always that we will attempt to make it too simple because we are afraid of what we might find if we dive into the complexities of it. We should not water down God’s word, but I always want to be careful of using it to build up unecessary walls as well. I think from your response that you would agree.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Your humility and clarity are much appreciated.
Brent
karen on Mon, September 15, 2008
First - the sign makes me sad. “He thought the message would be a loving way to remind teenagers that the Bible denounces homosexuality.” Loving? Not sure how that is loving.
Second - My heart breaks for a “mostly gay Jesus Metropolitan Community Church in Indianapolis”, because it seems that while homosexuals are accepted (as they should be in any church), they’re told it’s OK. If the church was mostly gay because they were ministering to gays and loving them and speaking truth into their lives, it would be a different story - I just don’t get that from the article.
It’s no wonder the world sees us as hypocritical.
Andy Wood on Mon, September 15, 2008
The way the church should tackle homosexuality is to start by committing ourselves to our own (presumed) heterosexual purity and faithfulness. Before we defend the institution of marriage, we need to defend and protect our own.
I also think that somewhere it’s time for some ownership for the responsibility for the sin, as Nehemiah did in his prayer of national repentance (Nehemiah 1).
Ray Boltz is deceived and a disappointment. So was I once, for different reasons.
We are often told that the NT standard is to love the sinner, hate the sin. Fair enough. That’s a balance we’ll spend a lifetime pursuing. But the way to most biblically hate the sin is to acknowledge that I am just as capable of committing it as anybody. And I HATE that about the sin… and about myself.
Stewart on Tue, September 16, 2008
Just a two cents in agreement with Daniel’s original comment regarding the complexity involved in determining a sexual ethic from Scripture. I agree that Scripture teaches that homosexual sex is inconsistent with God’s desires; however, the subject is far from a major theme and there are some legitimate arguments from the “affirming” side.
Not wanting to speak for Daniel (as he can speak for himself) but I read his post as inviting some humility on the subject. It would be nice to see humility from both sides! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
I’m not sure how best to tackle this from a practical perspective. I think hosting breakout sessions and having public dialogue is NOT helpful. Largely because they are rarely honest. One perspective or the other usually takes control and all dissenters are demonized. I’ve seen it on the left and the right.
This is a subject that needs a great deal of trust and personal history to be talked about honestly by people who disagree. As a result, my practice has been to address it in private. Never from the pulpit. When I do talk about it, my counsel is based on friendship and concern shown over time. I generally ask how they understand their sexuality in light of God’s Word. After listening - then I offer my understanding.
My goal in this is to be honest about my feelings, how I read Scriptures and encourage the other person to take a serious look at God’s Word. But my biggest goal is to demonstrate love and a commitment to the relationship. How will they know God’s love, if they feel God’s people hate them?
I don’t feel it is my job to manufacture repentance or guilt. I simply advocate a humble, honest reading of Scripture and trust that the Holy Spirit will work. In my limited experiences - sometimes the Spirit has moved in amazing ways. And sometimes the other person continues in (what I believe) is sin.
I firmly believe that truth communicated with arrogance and hatred is no longer truth. Just as falsehood communicated out of love and concern is still a lie. It works both ways.
Evan Blackerby on Tue, September 16, 2008
“I firmly believe that truth communicated with arrogance and hatred is no longer truth.”
I love this. Thanks!!
Peter Hamm on Tue, September 16, 2008
Stewart.
God stuff!
You wrote [As a result, my practice has been to address it in private. Never from the pulpit. When I do talk about it, my counsel is based on friendship and concern shown over time.] That is generally our policy, too, and I’ve become convinced it’s the only sound one.
Brent K on Tue, September 16, 2008
With 75% of the unchurched having a negative perception of the church - part of this discussion is why. Many people know what the church is against, but they don’t know who we love.
Our Church hit the national spotlight a few years back - Nightline did a story about a young man in our church that was gay. Of course we were protested by the Kansas bunch… but who hasn’t been?
We have got to find a way to drop the rocks and stop having Rock throwing contests - without condoning and accepting the sin.
Jesus in John 8, stood up for the adulterous woman, but then said, go and Sin No more.
I pray God gives us hearts of compassion to reach out to those who are hurting, but lovingly disciple them and help them be set free from the sin that entangles them.
I pray God gives us wisdom to reach them and love them.
bishopdave on Tue, September 16, 2008
Re: biblical polygamy
I think if we understood better the use of narrative literature in the eastern mindset we’d notice that just because polygamy was practiced, it wasn’t condoned. Abraham—multiple partners got him in trouble and caused problems. Jacob—thought he was marrying one, woke up with two, not a peaceful household. Look at the competition between the children of the various wives, living in jealousy as one wife was more fruitful than another (Rachael-Leah, Hannah and her hubby’s other wife).
Point is that yes men of faith had multiple partners-but I would bet a good examination of those men would show that those relationships were not blessed nor ideal. A major leadership principle learned from God—you work with what you got.
You might make the point that Jesus came through Bathsheba and David, but God keeps using flawed people to do His will.
Dave Z on Tue, September 16, 2008
“I firmly believe that truth communicated with arrogance and hatred is no longer truth.”
So if I say, “You idiot, the sun does not revolve around the earth!” then my arrogance and hatred negate the facts of the solar system and suddenly the sun DOES revolve around the earth? Truth itself is changed?
I’m guessing Stewart’s remark is really supposed to mean “When you dis someone, they tend to stop listening.” That is true, but it does not affect the accuracy of the message.
Is this the epitome of postmodern thought? Truth is determined by manner of communication? I’m especially confused because the next statement, the one about falsehoods, contradicts the truth statement. One says truth changes, the next says lies don’t. Then “It works both ways.”
?????
Peter Hamm on Tue, September 16, 2008
Dave,
You have a point…
But may I offer an alternative to Stewart’s thought.
Truth communicated without love might be truth, but can still be ignored in that context.
As Brent refers to… Look at the woman caught in adultery. Did Jesus say “You’re a sinner, get out of here and don’t sin any more” first? Or did he say “I don’t condemn you” first.
Let’s lead with grace, not with law… It appears to be what Jesus did with those sinners, although I admit he didn’t do that with religious hypocrites, the kind, I might argue, that might have spent more time haranguing people about their sin than in examining their own hearts…
Pastor Dan on Tue, September 16, 2008
For those questioning the perspicuity of scripture in the area of God design for sex here a few passages for you to consider. Just think about them - read them in their context. Come to your own conclusion on what God thinks about sex outside of the marriage between a man and a woman.
Acts 15:29
Romans 1:29
Galatians 5:19
Ephesians 5:3
Colossians 3:5
I Thessalonians 4:3
Back to the sign - of course it’s horrible…
While we can never compromise on the issue of sin we don’t need to have a mean spirited hypocritical approach to anyone. Those struggling with the sin of homosexuality are no different than any of us who struggle with other sins, like lust, greed, selfishness, pride, gluttony…. They like we need to live under the influence of Holy Spirit if we are going to live in victory over sin.
CS on Tue, September 16, 2008
Peter:
“Let’s lead with grace, not with law… It appears to be what Jesus did with those sinners, although I admit he didn’t do that with religious hypocrites, the kind, I might argue, that might have spent more time haranguing people about their sin than in examining their own hearts…”
I have to disagree with this point. God’s grace doesn’t make sense unless the person realizes his or her transgression against the Law.
To borrow a line from Ray Comfort, if someone told you that he paid a $25,000 fine on your behalf, without mentioning the crime, it sounds weird. Perhaps even offensive, because the insinuation is that the person has done something wrong without their knowing.
Now, if the same person was told about the crime that they committed, driving recklessly through a blind children’s convention, and that a cop was about to throw him in jail for 100 years, then suddenly that fine makes sense. The person would be thankful for someone paying such a fine and being let off the hook.
I realize that within the context of the statement you wrote, and in light of the church sign here, the Law was being presented in a manner which some may regard as offensive. Yet, the Law is the Law, and people must understand how they have transgressed it if God’s unbelievable grace is to make sense.
But, this may have been the point you were getting at, and I may have misinterpreted things. I just saw, “lead with grace,” and my warning indicator lit up a little.
—
CS
Yet another perspective on Tue, September 16, 2008
People are born gay but people aren’t born greedy. They learn greed from their parents and society.
Jesus said a lot about greed and wealth. He said not a word about gay people.
And rightfully so; the love of money, not a fellow human being, is at the root of all evil.
Yet in our American so-called Christian society, we base everything from health care to justice to political voice on income. Everything.
Our glorified view of dog-eat-dog is in direct contradiction to Scripture, but who cares about that?
Post a blog message on homosexuality, and you’ll get hundreds of passionate, studied replies.
Post one on greed in our society, and you’ll get
: crickets:
Andy Wood on Tue, September 16, 2008
Hey, “Yet another,” can’t you see we’re talking about other peoples’ sins here? http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif (Interesting - my confirmation code below is “money84”). Okay, Lord, I’m listening.
“Lead with grace”… I get it, believe me.
But I think we also need to “lead with face” - as in faces on the floor. There’s a place to cry out to this generation, but only when we’ve cried out to God. I don’t mean this flippantly, nor do I offer myself, sadly, as the example of one who has done it enough. A lot of our conversation is about what to do with an incurable sickness (sin in general, I’m talking about). Do we yell at it, massage it, build shrines to it? If so, we are no different than the pagans. My question is, what do men and women of God have as a resource that others don’t have? And when will we recognize who the real enemy is and do something about it (Ephesians 6:10ff)?
Jerry on Tue, September 16, 2008
Signs like this are exactly the reason why unchurched people avoid churches like the plague. Why would someone want to to go to a church where you’re set on fire even before you can even get to the parking lot? I see so many church signs that tweak me so badly I want to go in and ask “Just exactly are you trying to accomplish with that sign out there!?!?!?” You’re not showing the love of Christ.
The sign above is just another in a long line of finger-pointing, condemning, we’re-better-than-you type sings that do nothing to advance the kingdom of Christ.
Do we do that from time to time, too? Do we set ourselves up as better than those who don’t yet know Christ and put them off in the process? Or do we show them grace and let them know that we, too, have need of the Savior? Sometimes on a moment-by-moment basis.
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