“I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It, Then I Went to Hell”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, September 15, 2008
- Viewed 169
- (72) comments so far
You can watch the local news report here with an interview of the sign pastor. And you can read a story on Ray Boltz here
OK… how should the church tackle homosexuality? It seems to me that both of these approaches are dead wrong.
Todd
That's the text of a sign posted outside a Columbus, OH church last week. Obviously, this sign was a take off of (former CCM singer) Katie Perry's song titled "I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It".
I've been saying for a long time that I really think that homosexuality is THE big battleground in the evangelical church these days. And the past week was a good example.
For those who haven't yet heard, Christian singer Ray Boltz came 'out of the closet' last week. He decided to take his homosexuality public as he began a series of concerts in affirming churches. Boltz's quote: “If this is the way God made me, then this is the way I’m going to live. It’s not like God made me this way and he’ll send me to hell if I am who he created me to be … I really feel closer to God because I no longer hate myself.”
Those are the two extremes: First, lash out publically, openly and publically condemning all homosexuals to hell on the church sign; to openly being homosexual and rejoicing because that is the way God made you.
Comments
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fishon on Tue, September 16, 2008
Peter wrote this, but I don’t necessarily address this to him—but to all.
“Truth communicated without love might be truth, but can still be ignored in that context.”
——-It seems to me that many Christians today have this idea that love should be displayed in such a way as to not make the [since the subject is homosexuality] practicing homosexual uncomfortable, when addressing their sin.
I am guessing that some of you would take Stephen to task for how he addressed the peope in Acts7, “You stiff-necked people….” I am afraid that many sensitive Christians, would say, “If only Stephen would have been tackful, understanding, sensitive, and more loving in his address, he would have lived to fight sin another day.
I dare say Paul’s politically correct way of addressing sin {NOT} got him beaten, stoned, etc.
I am sure I am in the minority, here, maybe the only one, but I think the sign was courageous.
The song was/is a chart-topper, and if some of you don’t think those kind of songs and music videos don’t make a huge impression on our teenagers, you live in la-la-land. Sometimes it takes a BIG message to battle a big message from SATAN [you better believe the song thrills Satan}.
I personally believe that this particular pastor showed more love for his teenagers by saying it straight than all the hyper-sensitive dribble coming out of the ‘if you don’t say it the way I think you should, crowd, you are a stone-thrower.’
I am positive that this pastor’s teenage congregation members will think twice about doing what the song and video suggest. At least he addressed it.
SO HAVE ANY OF YOU ADDRESSED THE ISSUE WITH YOUR TEENS? OR ARE YOU BASHING A GUY WHO IS AT LEAST TRYING?
fishon
Jerry on Tue, September 16, 2008
I appreciate the fact that there is some defense of this guy because sin needs to be addressed. But really, the ones insde already get the message. Do you really think this sign will get unchurched people in to hear the whole story of love, forgiveness and reconcilliation?
Charles Blom on Tue, September 16, 2008
There are some great comments on the situation, but few address the personal side of the story of a man, Ray Boltz, who by his own admission struggle for many years with this issue in his life.
Why couldn’t he go to his pastor and talk to him about it?
Where was the church to help him work through this?
Where was the community of faith for Ray?
Why didn’t the church reach out to his family?
We tend to take issues like homosexuality and not want to get to practical issues of how the church, a body of believers who have been saved from sin, can minister to sinners when they really need it.
Others who have come out as homosexuals have spoken the same words, ‘i was alone with no one to turn to.’
Why aren’t we there for them?
I have deliberately stayed away from using some terms not because i am pro homosexual or affirming, but because we need to see the human face on the sinners.
Some churches are still uncomfortable if someone would stand and say, “Hi, I am Joe and I’m an alcoholic.” let alone someone standing up and saying, “Hi, I’m Joe and I’m a homosexual, or a greedy person, or a . . . .”
fishon on Tue, September 16, 2008
Why couldn’t he go to his pastor and talk to him about it?
Where was the church to help him work through this?
Where was the community of faith for Ray?
Why didn’t the church reach out to his family?
You make many ASSUMPTIONS.
Did Ray tell you he didn’t talk to his pastor[s]”?
Did Ray tell his church so they could help him?
The community of faith just learned of this.
How do you know the church did not and is not reaching out to his family?
fishon
fishon on Tue, September 16, 2008
Jerry wrote: But really, the ones insde already get the message.
——-And you base that assumption on????
That would be like saying the Galatians Christians didn’t need Paul to write and say “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality…” because they already know that. In fact Paul says they are obvious, yet he still says it. I wonder why he did that?
fishon [jerry]
shane on Tue, September 16, 2008
Todd,
Have to disagree with you on the point that homosexuality is the battleground in the evangelical church today. Does it go against God’s word-yes. Does it need to be talked about more within the church-yes. However I believe that the major battleground within the church right now is Divorce. I do not have any statistics but I would think that there is a bigger issue with Christians who are divorcing within the church then there are Christians who are “coming out of the closet” within the church. Don’t mean to get off topic. But in all my years of pastoring and having to provide counsel, I have yet to provide counsel to someone “within” the church who is struggling with homosexuality. However in our church right now I have referred out 4 couples to professional marriage counseling because of problems within their marriage. We have serious issues within the church today, not sure if homosexuality “within” the church is way up there…..just my 2 cents. Great replies from folks love reading opinions, thanks Todd!
Peter Hamm on Tue, September 16, 2008
Interesting discussion.
CS writes [God’s grace doesn’t make sense unless the person realizes his or her transgression against the Law.] People in general and certainly people in this lifestyle (the ones I’ve known) know they are not right with God. God’s unmerited favor towards us makes sense, imho.
fishon,
Nowhere in Acts is Stephen’s behavior, leading to the first martyrdom, actually put forth as the norm or the right way to preach or speak to those outside the faith. Stephen was a deacon, he wasn’t ordained to preach. I’ve heard it argued that he was actually working outside his ordained authority, and that God made something beautiful out of that. But Acts is not a theological treatise for normative Christian behavior. It is an account of what happened in the early church. Also, fishon, we know Ray Boltz felt completely alone in this, so it can easily be inferred that he was not counseling with his pastor on it.
As far as the way we “lead with grace” as I stated (and as I think Jesus clearly models with “notorious sinners”), I have found it to be true that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
When we deliberately frame the message to offend those we know to be living an ungodly lifestyle, rather than deliberately frame the message to make sure that we continue to be friends of sinners, as Christ was, why should we be surprised when those outside our walls think we’re nuts?
grace on Tue, September 16, 2008
I really do think that there needs to be more sermons on homosexuality to help young people especiallly. There needs to be some openness about it because look at what Ray has done to his family. He kept it inside all those years, got married, had children, etc. If there is more of an openness about homosextuallity where people know they won’t be condemned for having those feelings then maybe they would be more willing to go to a pastor and confess before they get married and end up hurting a lot more people. I think Ray may have kept it inside because we all look at that sin as so horrible instead of with compasion for these people, where he was too ashamed to come forward with the feelings and too afraid of what people would say or think. I think Ray felt less guilt when he came out because he finally confessed it, that’s why he feels free. I think these people need to be reached as teens and young adults.
DanielR on Tue, September 16, 2008
fishon, I would think the church sign, at any church, is intended to communicate to the unchurched and people not in the congregation. If a church is using the church sign to communicate something like this specifically to the congregation, I think this might be an indication that the Pastor is having trouble communicating with the congregation thru normal means; thru sermons and face-to-face. I don’t know, but I have trouble believing this particular message was intended directly for the teenagers in the congregation.
That’s kind of like the parent who doesn’t feel the need to talk to their child about sex because the school will teach them about it in health class. “Whew, now we don’t need to talk to the youth in the church about homosexuality, the Pastor has addressed the issue on the church sign”.
It seems much more plausible that this particular church signs WAS intended for the unchurched, driving by. And as such, I think the message could be communicated much more effectively.
DanielR on Tue, September 16, 2008
Peter, you said, ”People in general and certainly people in this lifestyle (the ones I’ve known) know they are not right with God.”
Some, maybe most, but certainly not all. I had a friend in the Army who struggled with this issue for years. Then time I knew him he struggled to be a “good Christian” and struggled with what he felt inside. The last time I heard from him he had graduated from seminary, worked for several years in pastoral ministry in a traditional Baptist church, and then moved to a denomination that was “welcoming and affirming” and allowed actively gay ministers.
After years of study and prayer, the conclusion he reached was that we are wrong.
CS on Tue, September 16, 2008
Peter:
“People in general and certainly people in this lifestyle (the ones I’ve known) know they are not right with God.”
I have to echo DanielR above with this verse that help laid me straight when it came to my own sins:
“Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts. (Proverbs 21:2)”
—
CS
deaubery on Tue, September 16, 2008
a lot of you say these people are struggling, what are they struggeling against, them self, god , people, the sin, or what, if they know it is a sin what is the struggle, and if they do not know it is a sin, what is the struggle, someone please tell me.
Peter Hamm on Tue, September 16, 2008
Okay, let’s put it this way.
Back to the original story…
When you put a sign out front, you are essentially marketing your church, probably to people who haven’t been inside your walls. Chances are, you are hoping that those people are people who are not close to God at all. You are, again, marketing to outsiders.
This sign is, imho, an incorrect and inefficient and ineffective way to do this. I continue to feel it’s not the way the early church would have done it had they had electric signs.
Railing against sin to make unchurched and irreligious people feel uncomfortable being around you (intentionally even, as I’ve seen it done all too often) is not what I see Jesus doing in the gospels.
In fact, the statements against sexual sin in the New Testament are, in fact, internal church communication, aren’t they? (Paul’s letters were written to churches, not the unchurched.) Jesus is not recorded as addressing homosexuality directly, and we don’t see it used as a teaching point in the sermons in Acts, either.
Just something to think about… The issue at hand seems to me to be how do we communicate with outsiders, viz a viz a sign or some such.
fishon on Tue, September 16, 2008
Peter,
YOU:Jesus is not recorded as addressing homosexuality directly, and we don’t see it used as a teaching point in the sermons in Acts, either.
——-I don’t recall Jesus addressing pedophila directly either. Porn or rape are not a hot topic of Jesus’ either. I see much in the book of Acts about killing babies in the womb——SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
fishon
fishon on Tue, September 16, 2008
Peter said: “Stephen was a deacon, he wasn’t ordained to preach.”
———That is totally ridiculous.
Acts 6:8-10 Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. 9Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.
———-”...or by the Spirit by whom he spoke.”
———-So, do you think that when he was taken and he gave his defence and sermon he was not speaking “...by the Spirit by who he spoke…” earlier?
One other thing, Peter———Also, fishon, we know Ray Boltz felt completely alone in this, so it can easily be inferred that he was not counseling with his pastor on it.
———-Oh contra, many, many a man has been counseled by a pastor, only to ignore biblical advice, and go away feeling alone.
———-I expect the “immoral brother” in 1 Cor. 5 was feeling quite alone———-maybe, just maybe Boltz was counseled, but when he would not repent he wasn’t expelled.
———-If Boltz was counseled by a pastor and did not repent, and was not expelled, shame on the pastor. He might just have loved [politically correct] Boltz right into hell.
fishon
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