Outreach at Gay Pride Day
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, June 08, 2005
- Viewed 252
- (100) comments so far
Christians Say Hello. Gay Activists say Hmmm.
The Times piece says... "Pastor Lucas hoped that Liquid, which is part of a conservative Baptist church that considers homosexuality a sin, could take a third position, avoiding both the scolds of some evangelical Christians and the acceptance of more liberal churches. Without endorsing homosexuality, he said: "We want to dismantle the invisible hierarchy of sin that many evangelicals promote that puts gays and lesbians at the top of the list. That sense of self-righteousness and superiority runs rampant in our church like a cancer."
It continues... "For the members of Liquid, an alternative ministry within Millington Baptist Church, the event was a mission into new territory. At a final strategy meeting last week, a handwritten sign in the back of the room listed reasons for the outreach, and the first was "to challenge stereotypes of 'Christians.' "
Mr. Lucas wore spiked hair and an Amsterdam Motorcycles T-shirt. He advised the church members not to get into arguments or try to convert anybody. "We're not going there to hand out tracts," he said. "These people have been marginalized and hurt, often by us.
"If they say, 'What are you doing here?' keep it simple. Just say, 'We're here to show you God's love.' "
Alternatively, Mr. Lucas said, they might draw criticism from other conservative Christians, including members of their parent church, which was not invited to participate. "People might say, 'So you think I have to change so God will love me?' " he said. "Or they'll say, 'So you're a gay church, huh. Baptists are coming around to gay marriage?' You just say to them, 'No, I'm just here to serve.' "
If all went well, he said, "we'll earn the wrath and condemnation of religious folks, and find more people on the fringe, much like it was for Jesus."
Seems like a balanced approach to me, and a good start. I think Jesus would treat homosexuals with respect, just as members of "Liquid" did. Jesus loves each of them as much as he loves you or me. You've often heard it said that you need to love the sinner and hate the sin... I think this is a great way to start the dialouge. Who knows if any progress was made; but nothing was hurt.
FOR DISCUSSION: Has your church done any outreach to groups like homosexuals? How was it received? How did it effect your church?
Just in my last post today, I said I don’t get political too much here, but this struck me as a positive development...We’ve all seen the "God Hates Fags" signs that so-called Christians take to protest the homosexual lifestyle. Pastor Tim Lucas takes a different approach that was noticed this week in the NY Times. On a hot seaside afternoon, about 150 people from his small church wore light blue T-shirts bearing the name of their ministry, Liquid, and gave out free bottles of water. The title of the article…
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Todd Rhoades on Tue, June 14, 2005
I’m afraid we’ll digress too much from the original post on ‘outreach’, but I think these thoughts should fit in. Here’s where my mind is at. (not that I’m right on everything) http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
1. I, personally, think scripture is pretty clear on the issue of homosexuality. I think it’s a stretch to believe that God looks favorably on this type of act or lifestyle.
2. I also think ‘gay bashing’ is wrong. In my opinion ‘gay bashing’ is when people try to pursuade people that the gay lifestyle is wrong by hitting them over the head with the Bible (thus the term bashing). Again, per my last post, I think that we can disagree (I already have stated my disagreement with homosexuality) without holding signs saying “God hates Fags” (that’s bashing). Saying that, I believe homosexuality is not acceptable in scripture is essentially saying the same thing, but not in an insulting, self-pompous way.
3. I think the outreach done by the people in this article is admirable. Not because they were able to share the gospel with the homosexual community; but because it was a good first step in helping the homosexual community know that there are some Christians that are more concerned about them (and their souls) than about slamming their lifestyle.
4. To be honest, why is this type of outreach (showing love and kindness to homosexuals) needed in the first place? Because the Christian community as a whole has pretty much ‘bashed’ them in the past. The article even stated something to the effect that they didn’t want gay people to think that ‘every Christian was like that’. You’ve heard ‘hate the sin, but love the sinner… many times the representation is ‘hate the sin, hate the sinner’. At least that’s how it’s come across.
5. Greg says, “The problem fundamentalist Christianity has with this is that it challenges a literalist view of Scripture.” And he’s absolutely right on this…That that IS the problem Christians have with homosexuality. I for one believe that it is wrong because the bible forbids it (’literally’).
6. An interesting side note… It’s interesting to me that while many Christians are so adamant about decrying the evils of homosexuality; that there are many Christians and churches that have in the past few years really loosened their condemnation and stand on heterosexual sinful behavior (extra-marital affairs, divorce, pre-marital sex, living together, etc.) And also a number of other sins that have to do with the body including obesity.
So those are the thoughts I have this morning. We have an opportunity here to have a respectful dialog. We have a pastor of a church that is mostly gay; and someone who considers himself a gay Christian. What an opportunity!
Todd
bernie dehler on Tue, June 14, 2005
Todd says:
“It’s interesting to me that while many Christians are so adamant about decrying the evils of homosexuality; that there are many Christians and churches that have in the past few years really loosened their condemnation and stand on heterosexual sinful behavior (extra-marital affairs, divorce, pre-marital sex, living together, etc.) And also a number of other sins that have to do with the body including obesity.”
It’s true, the church doesn’t talk enough about sexual sins, such as sex outside of marriage. However, one HUGE difference is that the sin of homosexuality is not even seen as a sin, but is being pushed on society as a “normnal” behavior. It would be like if a group tried to get laws to approve of adultry… we need to stand against this, as our duty of living in a democratic society (our opinion counts, along with everyone elses… why put the light under a bowl???” Approving same-sex marriage would really hurt this nation, morally, I think…
...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com/
Todd Rhoades on Tue, June 14, 2005
I agree Bernie, but with one addition. While it is politically correct to accept homosexuality and the tide has turned so that a majority of americans think it’s ok and NOT a sin; I would argue that the same exact thing has happened with the heterosexual sexual issues. Most don’t think twice about co-habitation as a sin much anymore. Most do think adultery is wrong; but even that number is dwindling; and when adultery happens, rarely do we call it sin. The world just looks at it as ‘life being unfair’.
As a parent of four ‘youngin’s’, I don’t like the propogation of the gay lifestyle as normal and acceptable; but think there needs to be a balance of standing up for what I think is Biblically correct and at the same time, not coming across so bombastic that my message is lost. That’s a hard middle ground to find, I’ll admit; and somewhat impractical at times (there are as many fanatical gay ‘rights’ people as there are gay ‘bashing’ Christians).
Greg on Tue, June 14, 2005
Thank you Todd, for your words on us all understanding the ‘other side’. We live in such a world of ‘us’ and ‘them’. Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Protestants, Socialists, Communists, Monarchists, etc. That does not mean one is right or wrong. Perspective is everything; Straight and gay included.
For those who believe that the Bible is literal when it comes to condemning homosexuality, I would ask them to consider the old view point of Judaism (Jesus and apostles were Jewish) condemning and excluding Gentiles from the Jesus community. The ealry Church had to grapple with that whole issue. Talk about exclusiveness.
The slavery issue, race issues, all kinds of social issues that Christians have had to understand within historical perspective has changed the way we see the world. I believe that the gay issue is another one many will (albeit kicking and screaming) come to terms with.
IF the Bible is literal in everything it says, we are all in a heap of trouble. Just read the Levitical holiness code and tally up how Christians live lives today. The Law guides us, not condemns us.
Jesus opened arms of mercy to all. What God has called clean we are not to call unclean.
Can you imagine the power of a united church of believers who would turn the world upside down?
Peace, Greg
BeHim on Tue, June 14, 2005
I would state as Christians we shouldn’t be willing to accept ANY sin in any of our lives, that being said, we should live a life of repentence - because we DO sin.
But repentence really comes down to acknowledging I am sinning and that I wish to turn away from it. If I’m not willing or wishing to turn away from a sin in my flesh (be it obesity, porn or homosexuality) then I am not TRULY repenting and thus not right with God.
We are called to seperate ourselves from the world, meaning, to deny the flesh, and not be like the world (carnal and rebellious) and fight the good fight against powers and principalities (really, war against the three fold enemy: the flesh, the world and lucifer and his minions).
I welcome the opportunity to openly discuss this with Al and Greg, so I’ll start with the questions I orginally asked: Do you believe homosexuality is wrong? ie. sinful?
This is the crux, isn’t it?
Btw. If you were to ask me if I feel living together and having sex outside of marraige is a sin, I would say yes. It is a sin. As is adultry and the others you mentioned.
So now that we’ve identified it as “sin”, what do we do with it then? Repent… right?
The REAL issue is defining it as sin.
If we disagree there then we MUST go to Scripture for the objective Truth.
Todd Rhoades on Tue, June 14, 2005
Just a clarification, Greg. You said:
“Thank you Todd, for your words on us all understanding the ‘other side’. We live in such a world of ‘us’ and ‘them’. Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Protestants, Socialists, Communists, Monarchists, etc. That does not mean one is right or wrong.”
Actually Greg, I DO think that in most circumstances it does mean that one side is right and the other side is wrong. I don’t believe in relativism (that everyone is right)… and I do believe in absolute truth; so in most situations, two opposite viewpoints are not necessarily equal; one must be right and one must be wrong. However, that doesn’t mean that I don’t listen to the other person’s opinion and desire to learn why they think like they do. I think that’s healthy.
I’ve already stated that I think homosexuality is forbidden in scripture. We did have a little discussion (a good one by the way) over at the “progressive churches” post from a few days ago. So, in this one case, Greg, we do disagree on our interpretation of scripture. And, of course, I do believe that I’m right. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif (That’s kind of the definition of ‘belief’, right?
And BeHim makes a good point… what is your biblical view of homosexuality? For example, how would you interpret these verses:
Romans 1:24-27, “RO 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
RO 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”
and Galatians 5:19-21, “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
They either need to be interpreted literally or figuratively… but they seem pretty straight forward (literal) to me.
I’d be interested to hear how you (Greg) or Al (the homosexual who posted above) interpret these verses?
Thanks!
Todd
Rick on Tue, June 14, 2005
2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Sometimes our desire to bring folks to repentence is ‘worldly’ effort…which brings “worldly sorrow”.
I think the world (including folks like Gary and the homosexual community) would be wow’d if believers would concentrate more on:
Loving your neighbor as yourself.
and
the ministry of reconciliation.
In my life I respond (am attracted to) those who have the two above characteristics and I’m repelled from those who criticise and judge.
You can quote all the “truth” you want from scripture…and all the person will hear is “gong, gong, gong”...if it’s not soaked, coated and preceded by a relationship of unconditional acceptance and love.
It seems (to me) “we” (believers) for the most part just don’t get this…and continue to promote judgement and condemnation.
makes me tired.
I’m still interested in hearing how folks are leading others in accepting and loving others (folks like me, like Gary, like Todd, etc).
Greg on Tue, June 14, 2005
Todd wrote: “I DO think that in most circumstances it does mean that one side is right and the other side is wrong.” I must say I taken aback at such superior insight! Are you one of those who believe that Christians must be republican or nothing? or that the world God made is only one color, one race, one religion? Being open-minded does not mean we have to compromise our beliefs. We need to see the beauty all around us as God created such.
I would love to address the Biblical passages mentioned by you…but I am preaparing for a church Board meeting as we speak. I would love to share my perspective…I was raised and theologically schooled in fundamentalism and am proud to say I have evolved from that impediment to a more rounded spiritual growth.
I respect other’s opinions and would like to think I am respected as a minister of the gospel in the same way.
Looking forward to continued discussions…Greg
Todd Rhoades on Tue, June 14, 2005
Greg wrote, “Are you one of those who believe that Christians must be republican or nothing? or that the world God made is only one color, one race, one religion? Being open-minded does not mean we have to compromise our beliefs.”
I don’t think that all Christians are republican or that all republicans are always right. Not by any means. But I do believe that truth exists, whether it be physical truths (like the law of gravity) or spiritual truths (like my view on salvation, or homosexuality for that matter). Being open-minded doesn’t mean that you need to always agree, but rather than you’re willing to listen and learn. I think we all can do this and yet hold firm to our beliefs, especially those beliefs we interpret from scripture.
Hope this helps clarify some.
Todd
BeHim on Tue, June 14, 2005
I welcome the opportunity to openly discuss this with Al and Greg, so I’ll start with the questions I orginally asked: Do you believe homosexuality is wrong? ie. sinful?
What questions would you ask of me in this open discussion?
Todd Rhoades on Tue, June 14, 2005
You already asked that question, BeHim… I think that Greg answered that he’d be back to answer shortly. Remember… you’ve got 5 chances to respond per thread. You’re already at 4. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
That said, I too look forward to Greg’s response; and Al’s as well, if you’re still out there, Al.
Todd
bernie dehler on Tue, June 14, 2005
Todd, it’s good to see you taking a stance that homosexuality is sexual sin. I’m pleasantly surprised.
As for a gay pastor, would it be possible for such a person to understand any kind of sexual sin? Seriously wondering, not a put-down. Once the conscience is seared, it can’t feel much.
Reminds me of 1 Tim. 4:
2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
Help for homosexuality, Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.
...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com/
Greg on Wed, June 15, 2005
Bernie wrote:
“As for a gay pastor, would it be possible for such a person to understand any kind of sexual sin? Seriously wondering, not a put-down. Once the conscience is seared, it can’t feel much.”
If that reference was directed to me. Who said I was gay? That is an assumption. Open-minded people are not clumped into the godless, unbelieving, homosexual, abortionist, ACLU type of crowd that Jerry Falwell blamed for 9/11…
The gay people I minister to are not perverts, they live lives like anyone else. Their faith is just as meaningful, their desire for happiness, the sense of belonging, the wanting to be Christ in the world, etc….
As for Scripture, we could all go round after round in our views. The thoughts could be made about ritual uncleaness (’abomination’) in the Levitical references and cult temple prostitution in New Testament passages. They do not refer to sexual identity but to the wrong usage of sexaul activity. The word ‘homosexual’ was coined in the late 1800’s and should not be used in some our Bible translations. The ancient world-view of clean and unclean still persists in our supposed modern Christian churches. The subjegation of the black reace was justified by the Bible. Prejudice is is not absolute truth….
But,I think I would be wasting my time attempting to help you pop your head from the ground, because many fundamentalists are content with sticking their heads into the ground like the ostrich, and as they do-expose their rump for the rest of us to laugh at. There are many good scholarly books to read if one wants to see the reasoning behind the ‘gay’ interpretation of the Bible, but I doubt fundamentalists will even try to understand the other side of the coin…
My conscience is not seared, brother…in fact it is liberated by God’s all-inclusive mercy and grace. Grace is undeserved favor…regardless of sexual identity or any other perceived threat to your notion of reality.
The same ‘sword of the spirit’ you wield maming minds and hearts, I would like to return to you with Romans 2:1:
“You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.” The ‘same things’: are making your view of God an idol thereby, excluding the rest of the world in the process…
I probably won’t be welcome back here so I have said my piece…I thought this was a forum, not a lynching…
Blessings be upon you,
Greg
bernie dehler on Wed, June 15, 2005
Hi Greg-
No one lynched you. We are expressing our opinions, that’s all. I never said anything about you specifically, because I don’t know you.
I’m very familiar with gay ministries, such as Portland Fellowship ( http://www.portlandfellowship.com/ )and what Focus on the Family has to say. I suppose you disagree with this Christian therapy, and the former gays they have helped? I’ve met some of the former homosexuals, and with their new faith and over-coming, they are some of the strongest Christians I know.
I consider myself an Evangelical, not a Fundamentalist (I guess to distance myself from people like Jerry Falwell, who can be abrasive).
...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com/
Todd Rhoades on Wed, June 15, 2005
OK… time out. Greg, I thought everyone was being pretty civil and that we were going to have a good discussion here that I was looking forward to being involved with.
The word Fundamentalist means alot of different things to different people; and quite honestly the overall meaning or inference has changed over the years.
I hope you’ll come back to the table and discuss this with us Greg… you have to be aware that most of the evangelical community does not accept homosexuality as an allowable practice for the Christian. And I think that’s how most on this blog would feel… but I for one would like to hear your response (if both sides can do so with an even head).
If you’re willing, maybe here’s where we could start Greg. You said,
“The thoughts could be made about ritual uncleaness (’abomination’) in the Levitical references and cult temple prostitution in New Testament passages. They do not refer to sexual identity but to the wrong usage of sexual activity.”
You’ve mentioned this before refering to heterosexual sinful practices. That’s fine, and I think most of us would accept this… but what about the scriptures that talk specifically about homosexuality (like the scriptures that I wrote above). These to me don’t seem just to condemn the sexual act but the lifestyle. “Indecent Acts” “Unnatural relations”, those type of things… how would you interpret this passage?
As I said, Greg, I hope you’ll come back to the table and discuss… I’ll make sure that everything stays civil; that everyone’s treated nicely; and that testiness is not a problem. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
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