Outreach at Gay Pride Day
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, June 08, 2005
- Viewed 253
- (100) comments so far
Christians Say Hello. Gay Activists say Hmmm.
The Times piece says... "Pastor Lucas hoped that Liquid, which is part of a conservative Baptist church that considers homosexuality a sin, could take a third position, avoiding both the scolds of some evangelical Christians and the acceptance of more liberal churches. Without endorsing homosexuality, he said: "We want to dismantle the invisible hierarchy of sin that many evangelicals promote that puts gays and lesbians at the top of the list. That sense of self-righteousness and superiority runs rampant in our church like a cancer."
It continues... "For the members of Liquid, an alternative ministry within Millington Baptist Church, the event was a mission into new territory. At a final strategy meeting last week, a handwritten sign in the back of the room listed reasons for the outreach, and the first was "to challenge stereotypes of 'Christians.' "
Mr. Lucas wore spiked hair and an Amsterdam Motorcycles T-shirt. He advised the church members not to get into arguments or try to convert anybody. "We're not going there to hand out tracts," he said. "These people have been marginalized and hurt, often by us.
"If they say, 'What are you doing here?' keep it simple. Just say, 'We're here to show you God's love.' "
Alternatively, Mr. Lucas said, they might draw criticism from other conservative Christians, including members of their parent church, which was not invited to participate. "People might say, 'So you think I have to change so God will love me?' " he said. "Or they'll say, 'So you're a gay church, huh. Baptists are coming around to gay marriage?' You just say to them, 'No, I'm just here to serve.' "
If all went well, he said, "we'll earn the wrath and condemnation of religious folks, and find more people on the fringe, much like it was for Jesus."
Seems like a balanced approach to me, and a good start. I think Jesus would treat homosexuals with respect, just as members of "Liquid" did. Jesus loves each of them as much as he loves you or me. You've often heard it said that you need to love the sinner and hate the sin... I think this is a great way to start the dialouge. Who knows if any progress was made; but nothing was hurt.
FOR DISCUSSION: Has your church done any outreach to groups like homosexuals? How was it received? How did it effect your church?
Just in my last post today, I said I don’t get political too much here, but this struck me as a positive development...We’ve all seen the "God Hates Fags" signs that so-called Christians take to protest the homosexual lifestyle. Pastor Tim Lucas takes a different approach that was noticed this week in the NY Times. On a hot seaside afternoon, about 150 people from his small church wore light blue T-shirts bearing the name of their ministry, Liquid, and gave out free bottles of water. The title of the article…
Comments
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Greg on Wed, June 15, 2005
I apologize if my response was abrasive; in fact, as a Christian it was uncalled for. But, I hope those who disagree with me can begin to understand what type of judgment is portayed on those who don’t exactly agree with “you”.
Truth is absolute to many (only if if fits their perception of God). Something is wrong with that picture. The eyes in which we see the world will shape our treatment and mistreatment of those around us.
I would love to hear how one can justify the Nazi treatment of Jews and gays- who were also rounded up like cattle and carted off to concentration camps…If one political structure or religious camp thinks it has the copyright on TRUTH then are they justified in how they live out their view of humanity?
Greg
bernie dehler on Wed, June 15, 2005
Greg said:
“I would love to hear how one can justify the Nazi treatment of Jews and gays- who were also rounded up like cattle and carted off to concentration camps…”
Nobody could justify the Nazi’s, unless they were sick. But nobody’s advocating Nazi-like persecution of gays, either… not even Falwell…
Jesus told us to be salt and light, which is doing good works. But He never said to tolerate or work to legalize sinful behaviors. Therefore, we should all make a stand for righteous laws, as we define them personally/prayfully, in this democratic USA.
...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com/
BeHim on Wed, June 15, 2005
Greg and Al:
I guess I’ll use my final post to ask again, the same question I’ve asked now four times:
Do you believe homosexuality is wrong? ie. sinful?
GREG’S QUESTION:
I would love to hear how one can justify the Nazi treatment of Jews and gays- who were also rounded up like cattle and carted off to concentration camps…If one political structure or religious camp thinks it has the copyright on TRUTH then are they justified in how they live out their view of humanity?
RESPONSE TO GREG’S QUESTION:
Nazi’s cannot be justified for systematically killing millions of Jews nor gays. I’m sure many will be Judged in God’s Wrath.
God has THE Copyright on Truth and that is why we as Christians use the Scriptures to define Morality, not our own views, thoughts or feelings.
Nor do we use - the “holy spirit” has told me (God’s Spirit will NOT contradict His Word). Which is what Hitler would use as his defense (or in reality, would use the “how I view Scripture through the specticles of Nietzsche philosophy”) for terminating Jews and homosexuals.
Todd Rhoades on Thu, June 16, 2005
Greg,
As others have said; no one can justify what the nazis did to the jews; or how blacks were treated in the history of the US. But rather than focus on world or american injustice; I’d like to bring us back to the Biblical discussion, because (primarily) that’s what interests me. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Please don’t feel like anyone is ganging up on you or pressuring you; but again, I’d really like to hear you discuss your view of scripture (particularly the ones I gave earlier) and how and when you came to the point of viewing homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle. As I said, you must know that it’s a position that’s not commonly held in most of evangelical Christianity… that’s why I’m so interested in your input.
Hope to hear from you… (and Al, are you still listening?) http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
David on Fri, June 17, 2005
Interesting discussion. It seems as if everyone here is in agreement that the Bible is our authority in this matter. That’s good.
The thing that disturbs me is that for many people, as they use Scripture, they try to *validate* their beliefs and experiences by using Scripture, rather than *evaluating* their beliefs by Scripture.
When we take a pre-conceived notion and try to validate it by Scripture we’re no better than those who used Scripture to justify enslaving the Negro race.
For example, I can use Scripture to support the belief that I am allowed to have sexual relations outside of my marriage and my wife has no grounds for objection. I can actually show you where she may even encourage me in this practice. Because I’ve sought out Scripture to validate my adulterous lifestyle, it becomes okay for me. However, as I’m sure everyone on here would agree - I would be in sin participating in such a practice.
When we evaluate our beliefs, practices and lifestyle - and even sexual behavior - by Scripture, rather than seeking to justify them, the truth of Scripture will come out. Until then, we remain even more blind to and deceived about our sin.
Glenn on Mon, June 20, 2005
As one of the Liquid Pastors who helped organize the “Gay Pride” Festival Outreach in Asbury Park, NJ, (“Gay Pride meets Christian Humility”), I thought I’d add my two cents. 200 men and women from our community went to the festival on June 5th. We went - not in a show of strength - but in a spirit of humility. Many of us - including me - are recovering homophobes and skilled practitioners in the art of hypocrisy and self-righteousness. We know what it is to live comfortably with a “hierarchy of sin” mindset in which our heterosexual sin and lust is lower on the sin scale than what is practiced by those who are gay, ########, lesbian or transgendered. Prior to the festival we came, under the Spirit’s convction, to believe that this is no longer acceptable.
When we went to the festival our “message” was this:
“We are so sorry for the way that we Christians have treated you. You have been shown much distain and been the object of jokes, scorn, ridicule, and condemnation - much of it in the name of Christ. You know a lot of what Christians are AGAINST, but sadly, little else. We come in repentance, for we have misrepresented God to you - He does not hate you, and did not come into the world to condemn it or you, but to save it. We have come to give you a free cold bottle of water - with the hope of communicating to you the love, mercy, and grace of God in Christ, (which is free, as well).”
When it comes to homosexuality it is easy to get stuck on complex and circular philosophical, biological, and theological questions - just read the posts from this blog! We are good at debating our points of view, but to what end? Few, if any hearts and minds are changed in the process- and, in the end, we find ourselves further polarized from our own brothers and sisters. And the Enemy rejoices.
Our outreach to the 10,000 fairgoers was one small step taken by our community to show another face of Jesus. The gospel WAS communicated - loudly - only without words. We know we can’t convert or change anyone (only God can do that). But we can love people, and maybe, His love radiating through us, however imperfectly, will help soften the hearts of few to hear a quiet voice beckoning them to the Father who is heartsick until His lost sheep are found.
We know that some of the hearts of fairgoers were touched - and we know OUR hearts were changed in the process. If you’d like to read more about the impact, check out our blog on the festival (http://www.liquidchurch.com).
Glenn on Mon, June 20, 2005
Oh, one more thing. Al, if you’re still out there, my heart broke when I read your post of June 14th. Yes, we CAN be brothers and friends. If you’re ever in NJ - come look us up. Pastor Tim Lucas and I have a hug waiting for you.
BeHim on Mon, June 20, 2005
Glenn, thank you for your post and I appreciate what you’ve said. I only wonder if you would care to answer the question:
Do you believe homosexuality is wrong? ie. sinful?
Rick on Tue, June 21, 2005
Glenn,
Glad you guys are out there in NJ! Might wanna check out Wayne Jacobsen’s book Authentic Relationships. It fits in with what you guys are teaching/doing.
BeHim,
Are you right about everything? Is our intimate personal relationship with Jesus solely based on our being “right” on our interpretation scripture?
Rick
David S on Wed, June 22, 2005
I can’t but help reply to the previous question by Rick becasue I’ve been challenged with this same question myself.
No, I don’t believe I’m right about everything - that’s why I listen and learn and discern, and then judge what I’ve heard and learned against what I understand Scripture to be saying. Sometimes, my understanding changes after this process, other times, the beliefs I hold are strengthened.
However, there are certain things that I DO know I am right on - salvation, for example. No one is going to convince me otherwise that salvation comes in any other way than by God’s grace through our faith alone in what Jesus did for us on the cross.
So this leads naturally into the next question - “is our intimate personal relationship with Jesus solely based on our being ‘right’ on our interpretation of scripture.”
Let me quote a verse - John 4:24
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
According to this verse, in order to properly worship God, one must worship in truth. If we are wrong on our interpretation of Scripture - and we seek an unbiblical salvation, or we persist in unrepentant sin because we don’t interpret what the Bible plainly spells out as sin, we then don’t worship in truth. If we don’t worship in truth, then our relationship is not correct.
There’s one interpretation to every Scripture - the one God intended when He inspired it. There may be many applications, but only one interpretation that’s truth - the rest are false. The challenge is getting to that interpretation when there are so many opinoins and different views being presented.
Back to the original post - I applaud the efforts of the group. From what I saw, they didn’t condone homosexual behavior, they tried to reach out and show them the love of Christ. I think we can all agree that we don’t have to condone sinful behavior to show someone Christ’s love.
BeHim on Wed, June 22, 2005
RICK WRITES:
BeHim: Are you right about everything?
BEHIM RESPONDS:
No, I make mistakes. Where do you think I’m making a mistake?
RICK WRITES:
Is our intimate personal relationship with Jesus solely based on our being “right” on our interpretation scripture?
BEHIM RESPONDS:
Could a person’s intimate personal relationship with Jesus be based on a wrong interpretation of Scripture?
Rick, do you believe there is more than one True interpretation of Scripture?
I’ll use the previous post from David (I hope you don’t mind David) to reiterate this point:
[Let me quote a verse - John 4:24
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
According to this verse, in order to properly worship God, one must worship in truth. If we are wrong on our interpretation of Scripture - and we seek an unbiblical salvation, or we persist in unrepentant sin because we don’t interpret what the Bible plainly spells out as sin, we then don’t worship in truth. If we don’t worship in truth, then our relationship is not correct.
There’s one interpretation to every Scripture - the one God intended when He inspired it. There may be many applications, but only one interpretation that’s truth - the rest are false.]
BTW RICK
Since I’ve taken the time to respond to your questions, how about you respond to the question that many have avoided on this blog:
Do you believe homosexuality is wrong? ie. sinful?
kd on Wed, June 22, 2005
BeHim writes According to this verse, in order to properly worship God, one must worship in truth. If we are wrong on our interpretation of Scripture - and we seek an unbiblical salvation, or we persist in unrepentant sin because we don’t interpret what the Bible plainly spells out as sin, we then don’t worship in truth. If we don’t worship in truth, then our relationship is not correct.
There’s one interpretation to every Scripture - the one God intended when He inspired it. There may be many applications, but only one interpretation that’s truth - the rest are false.]
According to previous posts by yourself do you feel you were not worshipping according to scripture? Were you not saved or just in a learning mode? Can we not afford to give those still learning some latitude and love?
BeHim on Thu, June 23, 2005
KD WRITES:
According to previous posts by yourself do you feel you were not worshipping according to scripture? Were you not saved or just in a learning mode? Can we not afford to give those still learning some latitude and love?
BeHim responds:
KD is “learning mode” a reason for us, as Believers, to excuse presumptious sin in our lives? There’s a difference between “trespassing” sin and “unknowingly” sinning. One you learn what is right, the other you know is wrong.
Meaning, when I realize I’m doing something wrong or sinful, according to Scripture, then I can no longer claim ignorance. It has nothing to do with Salvation but rather my reasonable service to the One who Loves me.
If I don’t repent of it, or feel it isn’t a sin then do I really love Him?
Presumptious sin is more than just “learning mode” it’s outright rebellion (knowing something is wrong and doing it anyway)… can the person repent? Yes. But it’s been clear in these posts there is no willingness to repent probably because there seems to be a belief there is no reason to repent.
I for one am THANKFUL anyone can be forgiven for anything but HEARTBROKEN when christians won’t call sin>>>wrong. And tolerate and comprimise sin at the expense of The Truth of Love.
KD, do you believe homosexuality is wrong? ie. sinful?
kd on Thu, June 23, 2005
BeHim writes Meaning, when I realize I’m doing something wrong or sinful, according to Scripture, then I can no longer claim ignorance. It has nothing to do with Salvation but rather my reasonable service to the One who Loves me.
I think that is the point of outreaches. To reach people who don’t know they are caught in a lie and until they come to a point where they know what sin is like you, you just keep on loving them and helping them where they are at until the Holy Spirit reaches them and teaches them. That is His job, not ours!
Todd Rhoades on Thu, June 23, 2005
Thanks, kd… but I know BeHim, and he would just like someone to answer the question… ‘do you feel homosexuality is wrong’?
What do you think, kd.
I’ve already expressed my opinion that I think, biblically, homosexuality is a sin. But I support the group that did the outreach… it’s a great first step. I’ll share more later, it’s late!
Todd
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