I think I’m also done arguing about this, as we are straining gnats here, and you all know what happens next…

And in my case, it wasn’t a one-sided email conversation. Ingrid emailed me back several times even.

It’s interesting that we get to see an “inside glimspe” at the ongoing “conversation” (as the emergents would say) between Pastor Warren and Ingrid. And though the “name dropping” on her part would normally bother me (as it does when people like Mark Driscoll do the same thing - yet I happen to appreciate his ministry and approach greatly), it doesn’t offend me because of the context and who the letter was intended for.

On one hand, to a small extent, I can agree with the “idea” of what she is saying. We should be careful who’s authority and leadership we find ourselves under.

On the other hand, it is our responsibility to “study to show ourselves approved unto God, workmen that needs not to be ashamed ... rightly dividing the word of truth.” That’s the key. It’s our responsibility to examine the scriptures for ourselves and never take anyone at their “word” when it comes to the Word - especially when it comes to flags in our spirit towards context or doctrine.

Unfortunately, she has fallen under the wings of legalism and needs to re-examine her heart and motives and realize that we’re all just men and women consistantly “falling short of the glory of God.”

She should’ve taken the invitation for two reason:

1) Whether she wants to admit it or not, she is a part of the same body of believers as Pastor Warren, Pastor Driscoll and others and she could’ve benefited greatly from being in the presence of people who are passionate about change and seeing the body of Christ grow and mature.

2) It is her responsibility as a believer in Jesus to work towards reconciliation in all things and at all times whenever possible.

JOB,

[ In fact the invitation is conditional, no comments please.]

Uh, read again above… [Lastly, I would like to include you in an open discussion time with Pastor Rick and a few other leaders on Thursday, May 22nd.] Sounds like she’ll be able to say whatever she wants.

Also… [and then you quote Ingrid and comment.] I am quoting Ingrid in a public forum where anyone may comment or refute my statements that went along with it. Ingrid has chosen to air her comments in a forum in which no one is welcome to offer their perspective at all. Do you not see the difference.

I am not a watch-doggie, in fact. I don’t make it my job to root out heresy. I, instead, am in the business of the Gospel, as a pastor in a local church which sees people changed from unrepentant sinners into Christ-followers all the time. I’d DEFINITELY rather be doing that than be a watchdog, which is why I am.

I am eager, however, to expend SOME of my energy to support and defend the Gospel being preached in as effective a manner as someone like Rick Warren has done.

There, I think I just DID swallow a camel.

Yes,

I think you guys have a standing invitation to visit the church down the street from me if you ever come to Du Bois, too…

Thanks Leonard, I LOVE your perspective you offer here.

I could see a batch of chocolate chip cookies fulfilling the great commission… no, seriously… I could! Why not? Imagine this. Set an oven on stage, and during the sermon, the preacher makes a huge batch of cookies, and then gives them all out to his congregation at the end of the service. Thanks, Ricky… good idea!

That wasn’t a straw man, Ricky, by any definition. Paul gives instructions for married couples, the OT does, Jesus teaches us how to love like he does… I honestly think you’re the one who’s “inferring” when you seem to imply that Jesus never addresses nor wants us to address practical mundane real-life things like marriage, family, and making cookies for friends and family.

But as I recall, you’re one who doesn’t really recognize the authority and position of the local church leaders anyway. (So it mystifies me why you post or even read here, but whatever...)

Ricky,
Your mistaken.  Jesus taught on morality.  He spoke on sexual purity.  He spoke on the sanctity of marriage.  He spoke about lust.  I guess this might fall in the Make disciples and then TEACH THEM ALL I HAVE COMMANDED. 

why don’t you stop trying to pick fights?

JOB,

I’ll bite… one more time…

You lump a bunch of unconnected comments from people together into one. Do you see the flaw in that?

THANK you for lumping me into the same “team” as Leonard. I’m honored.

I myself don’t think I ever indicated that I thought that you had to meet someone face-to-face to make personal contact. I consider the email back-and-forth where both parties respond to one another to be just fine (just like the letters in the new testament that were mentioned earlier… an example you seem to have ignored). So you say [Please contact Ingrid with your complaints before you comment in any public forum.] I did that.

Ingrid is happy to criticize people publicly, including quotes out of context and strong sarcastic rhetoric, without allowing any dialogue or retort on her slice website. She has indicated that by not allowing comments. She has no interest in creating dialogue at all. She has indicated this personally to me by email. I find fault with that, and I let her know that. You, however, have been willing to engage in dialogue. I thank you for that.

But…

You seem to indicate that you think that it is necessary to have face-to-face contact with someone to critique them. And yet you are willing to critique me (and others) on this public forum without meeting face-to-face.

You can’t have it both ways, my friend.

JOB, perhaps you could facilitate communication with Ingrid.  Several times I have tried to communicate with her and have never gotten a response.  Her website does not allow comments on what she posts.  She does not respond to e-mails.  And now she won’t agree to meet in person with the people she takes issue with.  How would you suggest a person contact her?

Leonard, Peter, et al. please stop.  You’re wasting valuable time arguing with fools.  You have important Kingdom work to do, whereas the idiots have appointed themselves Guardians of the True faith and Defenders against heresy.  Here’s a quote for you, “Never argue with an idiot.  They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.”

I pray that people who happen upon these comments and these absurd arguments realize that this is not representative of the better side of Christianity. 

JOB (yeah, that’s your real name), Eric, Ricky, et al. what these discussions really need is something only you can provide: your absence.



Nope, don’t have time. I barely have time for these exchanges. But thanks for the invite.

But this was fun!

Please allow me to apologize; re-reading my comments from yesterday they were rude.

I still think many of the arguments presented are absurd and pointless, and I don’t see any point in discussing anything with someone who thinks they are the only one who knows the truth and that everyone else is leading people into heresy.  But calling anyone an idiot or a fool is uncalled for and I apologize. 

I do like the quote about arguing with idiots, though.

Gerbil,

I think you’re getting the wrong idea. Those of us who post here are very passionate about the Gospel, but I’ll bet if you found us all together in one room we’d get along just great, even those of us who disagree strongly on many things.

Spiritual Terrorism

Jude 3-13, 17-23

“Everywhere in the world, biblical truth is under attack. What may surprise you is that the most devastating assault isn’t coming from outside the church—it’s coming from spiritual terrorists within the church.

On the surface these terrorists look, act, and sound like everyone else. In their comfortable concealment they raise doubts about God’s Word, undermine its authority, and create chaos that, left unchecked, destroys churches.

Who are the spiritual terrorists? How do you identify them—what are the telltale signs? And how can you defend yourself against them?

In twenty-five powerful verses, Jude provides the counterintelligence to foil Spiritual Terrorism. Let John MacArthur show you how to spot enemies in the church, overcome their lies, and stay vigilant in the battle for truth.”

Quote:

“You know, as I was thinking about this, this week, it concerns me that we’d do anything to sort of contribute to this defection.  And one of the things that I believe contributes to people defecting from the gospel is an utterly inadequate presentation of the gospel.  I think it’s part of the ignorance factor where the seed sort of bounces off of hard ground because nothing has ever been told to somebody to prepare the soil.  Weak, self-centered, trivial, superficial, shallow gospel presentations do not bring people to a true knowledge of the gospel, do not bring them to true salvation, but they make some kind of response to that superficiality and when there is no real transformation in their lives, they depart thinking that they’re inadequate understanding was an adequate understanding and the gospel proved to be impotent.

In the most popular Christian book, The Purpose Driven Life, you will look long and hard in this book on the purpose driven life to find the gospel.  Now I don’t know how you could ever live a purpose driven life if you didn’t know how to get into the Kingdom of God, or how to be saved.  And as I went through the book, this is the gospel presentation, the only one that I found.  “First believe, believe God loves you and made you for His purposes.  Believe God has chosen you to have a relationship with Jesus who died on the cross for you.  Believe that no matter what you’ve done, God wants to forgive you.  Second, receive Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior.  Receive His forgiveness for your sins.” Is there anything missing there?  What might be missing there?  Repentance.  “So I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity.  Jesus, I believe in You and I receive You.” What Jesus?  Who did what?  Where’s the resurrection?  It goes on.  “If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations, welcome to the family of God.” How does he know who’s in the family of God?  No repentance, no judgment, no hell, no heaven, no self-denial, no discussion of sin, no laying down of the Law of God against which the sinner is broken, no sense of guilt, no sense of condemnation, no fear of eternal torment.  That is an inadequate gospel.  That is a gospel that I will tell you will contribute to apostasy.  It will contribute to defection because people are going to come to that which they think is the saving message and when it doesn’t do anything, they’re gone.  A shallow gospel presentation that doesn’t present the reality of eternal judgment, the reality of the Law of God, the reality of condemnation, eternal hell, does not warn of God’s wrath, that does not crush the sinner under the weight of his violation of the Law of God, that does not make him stand before God guilty. 

The gospel presentation that doesn’t do that isn’t a faithful gospel presentation.  And then to tell somebody, “Welcome to the family,” as if you knew.  This is fantasy.  The stronger the gospel message, listen, the harder the gospel message, the more demanding...the more law is incorporated into it, the more guilt is produced by it.  The more the sinner trembles, the more conviction, the more fear, the greater the understanding of hell and judgment, the less likely it is to generate a false response.  The Jews knew enough about God and they walked away.  We want to make sure that when people, if they will walk away, they’re walking away from the knowledge of the truth, not some superficial non-saving message that doesn’t even mention the resurrection without which you couldn’t be saved, because you can’t be saved if you don’t confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God...what?...raised Him from the dead.”

Apostates, Be Warned, Pt. 2 by John MacArthur

Is that frightening or not? Is that cause for real concern or not? Is John MacArthur lying? Is John MacArthur twisting the truth? Is pastor John MacArthur to be trusted or not?