Douglas,

Leonard is correct but It depends on who the inflamatory comments are directed at.  If it’s Ingrid from slice or if it’s me or someone who offers a different opinion feel free to call us fools or idiots, those inflamatory comments will go unchallenged so fire away.

JOB, you said: “If it’s Ingrid from slice or if it’s me or someone who offers a different opinion feel free to call us fools or idiots, those inflammatory comments will go unchallenged so fire away.”

And AGAIN, you are wrong.  It was I who called you a fool and that comment did not go unchallenged and I did apologize.

It isn’t differing opinions that are not welcome; it is personal attacks, misrepresentations, and untruths.

This discussion has gotten old a long time ago, but I’ll try again. 

Can I ask you a question?  Do you believe that Rick Warren is purposefully leading people astray?  Do you think he’s some kind of agent of satan who is purposefully leading people down a path designed to keep them away from a relationship with God?

If your answer is yes, than I understand the personal attacks you, and those who seem to be like you, make against him.  I disagree with you but I understand better.

If, on the other hand, you don’t think he is purposefully leading people away from God, then I assume your disagreements are with his style or with his social programs, because his theology and doctrine are pretty straight forward.  Purpose Driven is a program, not doctrine or theology, a program designed to help churches reach more people and help them begin a relationship with God.

So is it Warren’s theology or doctrine that you disagree with, or is it his Purpose Driven program or his social programs that you disagree with, or is it a personal dislike for the man?

JOB,

In defense of Daniel, he was challenged and he apologized. Did you ignore it? Or just miss it?

Peter,

who challenged him?

hooray!!!!!!!! mr perfect theologian i’m right everybody else is wrong douglas is supervising now

CS, you didn’t answer the primary question; Do you believe that Rick Warren is purposefully leading people astray?

If you disagree with someone, fine, we don’t all agree.  You and I obviously don’t agree on many points.  But that should not lead to personal attacks.

The “disagreements” I see and hear voiced often don’t come across as disagreeing with the person but rather as personal attacks. (And I’m guilty too, but I try to watch it and apologize when I do cross the line).

If you believe someone is purposefully and willfully trying to lead people astray or distort the truth towards some malign purpose then that a different thing.

CS,
I guess one of the great things about this site is we can disagree.  For what it is worth, repentance was not always directly spoken of.  The Ethiopian eunuch was not asked to repent.  He was simply told the good news about Jesus and then got baptized.  As was already pointed out, Jesus did not always ask people to repent either.  The Apostle Paul did not actually hear a message to repent, but did so.  It is really important to understand Repentance is a part of turning to Christ, but you hold RW to a standard the scripture does not even meet. 

Earlier you chide him for saying motives do not matter but even Paul said this in Philippians 1.  You chide him for using phrases like God gives us a mulligan at the cross… When in reality is a mulligan is a second chance.  Does not the cross offer us a second chance?  You chide him for his PD programs because people who are primarily fundamentalists disagree with him.  Mac has made it a personal crusade to speak out in his books and other places against people who are not like him.  Ingrid, Silva and many others spend much more time voicing what they are against and calling out people they disagree with than in my opinion is necessary.  It is as if all methodology that does not match theirs is rife with doctrinal errors.  It is as if anyone seeks to speak the word in the language of our culture, they have changed how speaking the word should be done. 

I guess this is my primary difference MAC, Ingrid and others.  What they claim to be biblical is more your interpretation of being biblical than actually being biblical.  They focus on the minutia and in doing so they do not give anyone the benefit of the doubt, they simply give the doubt.  To assume if someone does not mention Repentance every time they do not believe in it or they are creating false converts is such a huge stretch.  This approach reduces following Christ to a set of formulas and doctrines, rather than a living dynamic relationship.

CS, I obviously think you’re wrong.  I think you have to little faith in God and the Holy Spirit if you think He is going to allow Warren to bring so many people into what they believe is a relationship with God only to fall away. 

I think you place to much emphasis on getting everything right, on having the correct (in your mind) theology and doctrine.  An Episcopal friend of mine says he doesn’t see the issues in his church as central to his salvation.  He states, when I arrive at the gates of heaven, I don’t expect St. Peter to say, You are XXX and you were on the right side of the homosexuality controversy in the Episcopal Church circa 2006. Well done good and faithful servant, you may enter the Kingdom of God.

I think his point is that arriving at one’s position on an issue is, at least in part, an act of one’s intellect, and he doesn’t believe that God is a schoolmaster who demands a passing grade on every test of doctrinal propositions. This would indicate that God rewards success, in this case intellectual success, rather than fidelity.  Given that we all make mistakes in judgment, given that some people are blessed with greater intellect than others, given that many people are born without the mental capacity to accept or reject factual claims of any sort, I have to question just how important is getting it all right?

I particularly like this prayer by the American mystic Thomas Merton. The underlining is not in the original.

MY LORD GOD, I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me.
I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you.
And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing.
I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire.
And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it.
Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death.
I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

I think you place more emphasis on getting everything right, on having the correct (in your mind) theology and doctrine, than I do.  I tend to place more importance on a relationship with God, and if I don’t have all the doctrine and theology right, I’m confident God will guide me there thru the Holy Spirit.  Rick Warren may not have all the points exactly right but I think he’s on the right track.

And I like golf metaphors.

CS:

You ask how I know my relationship with God is right without correct doctrine.  I believe if my relationship with God is right, He will guide me to correct doctrine. 

Who would you recommend I get “correct doctrine” from?  How do I know your doctrine is correct?  How do I know Ingrid’s or John MacArthur’s doctrine is right? How do I know John Shelby Spong is wrong?

I study and I pray.  I try to follow where I am led and I pray that it is the Holy Spirit leading me.

Also… what’s the prize for 100th comment this time…

CS –

To answer DanielR’s question about who has correct doctrine, you reply:

[More like “where” instead of “who.” And the answer is the Bible. You take whatever you are facing, whatever you are doing, go and look in the Bible for instruction, demonstration, and wisdom, and then apply that to your life. If what you are doing does not match up with the precepts, you change.]

But Daniel already said:

[I study and I pray.  I try to follow where I am led and I pray that it is the Holy Spirit leading me.]

Are you saying you don’t believe him, and others of us who disagree with you doctrinally?  You are implying that everyone who lands in a different doctrinal position on something doesn’t read their bibles.  Many people wiser and more biblically knowledgeable than both of us disagree, sometimes strongly.  Since they all carefully study the bible, how do any of us decide who’s right?

I believe Daniel’s method of allowing the HS to lead us is the correct (and ultimately the only) answer.  Centuries ago, as the scriptures were being canonized, our faith fathers helped us discern the essentials.  Beyond these things, though doctrine matters, it is not essential because it does not affect salvation.

Wendi

CS writes

[ If no one can know who is right about things through studying the Bible, and if the Holy Spirit is the only answer, then why should doctrine even be established? ]

I think the better question is, if no one can know 100% what is right and wrong about everything, isn’t it GREAT that we are saved by the blood of Jesus and not by mentally assenting to the correct list of doctrinal distinctives?

Once again, I reject the notion that there are correct things that must be believed to be saved, only the correct person to trust with my salvation… and that’s Jesus, and he is so big and powerful and he is so… well… GOD… that He gives us the Holy Spirit to lead us (eventually… not in one fell swoop or in one reading of Calvin’s Institutes) along our life-journey to truth.

Amen?

CS. you argue against RW from silence.  If you were to sit down face to face with him and ask.  Do you believe in repentance?  what do you honestly believe he would say?

100 for Leonard