:(

[If you think pastor and husband are synonyms I’d suggest that you check your Webster’s dictionary and Greek Lexicon.  I did a quick (not exhaustive) study myself, (if there’s a hermeneutics professor reading, feel free to check my exegetical work here).]

Wendi, perhaps you should read what I posted:  Husband and head of household are synonyms.  You’re chasing down your own statement.

[So BeHim, I find scripture to clearly differentiate the “job” of being a pastor and the “job” of being a husband (and I’m grateful that my own husband doesn’t view “leading me” as his job).  Nothing in my post or my friend’s statement is contrary to scripture as you suggest.]

Wow Wendi.  How confusing.  You’re the one that calls these things a “job” not me and the pastor IS THE SPIRITUAL LEADER in his home.  A person can be called by God to lead people but he is still the spiritual leader in his home.  The person called to lead MUST lead at home as the spiritual leader FIRST!  Why is this so confusing to you Wendi?  It’s almost as though you contend just to be contentious (the very thing you accused me of).

scripture is CLEAR the man is to be the spiritual leader in the home whether he is a pastor or not and your friend’s statement is clearly contrary to that scriptural teaching and if you choose to hold to it, then yes, you are scripturally wrong too.

[to think that it could be easily solved “biblically” if she goes to her husband and says “honey, please tell me what to do]

what other authority do we appeal to greater than the Bible?  Is God not the God of Authority over emotional pain/health/problems too?  At the core presupposition it is wrong to think God cannot solve ANY problem.

Arrgghh

On Wednesday BeHim you posted (starting with my quote):
Wendi: A Christian counselor friend once told me that when counseling clergy couples (his primary work) that he tells pastors they can either be a PASTOR or a HUSBAND to their wife, but not both (emphasis mine).

BeHim: This statement is contrary (polar opposite) to scripture.  This may seem practical but if practical is against scripture, I’m sorry, scripture RULES as the Authority.

So since you claimed that my statement was contrary to scripture, I posted today showing how the NT defines the roles of pastor and husband differently. I didn’t look up what scripture says about “leader in the home” because I my comment wasn’t about being a “leader in the home.” Being a pastor is a job, as is accountant, teacher, attorney, etc.  Both men and women can have the “job/vocation” of a pastor (depending on the denomination – and let’s not go to that discussion).  A pastor must choose to treat his/her spouse like a; 1) wife/husband or 2) a member of the congregation.  I submit that only #1 will work and only #1 is biblical. 

Nothing is unbiblical about that.  Shall we call it a day?

Wendi

Jack,

That figure of speech in the Bible, that simile, I think might be stretched a bit far in this case. Although the husband is to love his bride as Christ loves the church, that does not mean that one is equal to the other. I just think that’s stretching the figure of speech a bit…

Is a person qualified to lead at church if he is not leading at home?

Being a spiritual leader is not something we put off like a cloth or go home from like a job.  The individual is living the same life at home as he does in front of the church.  Paul makes this clear.

The statement:  “they can either be a pastor or a husband to their wife, but not both”

Is suggesting in some way a pastor and husband have two different standards by which they live; when in fact, the husband should be living by the same standard at home that he tells other to live by from the pulpit.

We don’t take off our Christianity or put on a new type of Christianity when we stand at the pulpit; we’re standing in the pulpit because we are Christians at home, at rest, at work, every minute of every day.

Is there a distinction in scripture between a husband and pastor, yes, of course, but it’s not putting one off and putting another on… a pastor is an extension of what he as a husband is already doing at home.  If this weren’t the case, there would be no reason for Paul to suggest that a person needs to be the leader at home if he is to be a leader in the church.  If it were just a job, then yes, I agree with you that a person could live one way at home, put on his righteous cloth and go to work then show up at home and be different by putting on his husband robe.

The distinction is made because it adds duties and responsibilities to what the husband is already doing at home… Now this person is no longer responsible for the spiritual welfare of what he teaches and does at home ONLY but also all those who hear and follow him.  It’s a grand calling with grand responsibilities and grand consequences for those who teach and do it wrong (i.e. the EXTREME importance of SOUND DOCTRINE - which is founded in God’s Sovereignty).

Thanks Deiredre, for reminding us that the issues we banter around in cyber space are real, and painful and unbelievably complicated.  Bringing us back to the original question is a reminder to pray for you.

And deciding exactly what it looks like for a husband to lead his household or for a wife to submit (as if we could figure those things out anyway), would never provide you with help walking through this painful season.  In fact, I very sure that your candor is much more helpful to those of us in ministry leadership, than is our inexhaustible string of posts for people who are in real pain.  At least this is the case for me.  I’m very glad that your ability to worship of the Lord isn’t being held hostage by the ugliness in your church.  I’m also glad that you and your husband have the kind of mutual love and support that allows for “unconventional” worshiping.

Wendi

Kent, I am assuming from reading between the lines that you are a pastor’s wife?  I find the whole submission thing is usually taken entirely out of context.  Truthfully, how can anyone know, but the two of us in the marriage, what constitutes submission in our relationship?  I don’t believe submission should be a “master and slave” relationship, but rather a giving of preference to one that we love in all things.  If we love one another we’ll do that anyhow without being commanded to!  If we live as if we love one another (1 Cor 13 ff) the discussion of submission becomes immaterial.  Thanks Wendi for your sensitive comments.  I think you truly “get it.” My purpose in posting at all is to remind everyone that it’s easy to “take sides” in an armchair discussion such as this; this is really a complex problem and one, I’m sure, faced by many more people than just me. Perhaps the biggest thing here is knowing that Christians were never promised an easy path.  Serving Him often means heartache, pain, disappointment and rejection.  Perhaps that’s why pastoral marriages fail.  Perhaps that’s also why our bond, above every relationship outside of that with Christ, should take precedence ....  “if one falls down his friend can pick him up.  Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.  A cord of three strands is not easily broken.” Ecc. 4: 9 - 12

Deiredre

I believe we can clearly see that while the answer to this problem may not be “simple”, praise God that we have a simple place to start, which is the Word of God.  Many I’m afraid don’t even want to start there.

I just perused the first page of comments and was kinda surprised by everyone’s response. Since my comments will be on the third page, prolly no one will read them. Here goes nothing…

We were in a church (not my current one) where the new senior pastor chose to let us go in spite of the fact that the deacons had told us we would not leave. This caused my wife unbelievable emotional trauma (not to mention the kids). At one point the senior pastor (and some members of the church) treated my wife very poorly and then theatened me that should she not love and support the pastor I would be asked to leave. hmmm

So, after one such confrontation with the senior pastor on a Sunday morning, I told my wife that she was not to return to our church. No one should have to go a church where they are not loved and encouraged, especially by the senior pastor who should model this as a servant leader.

I continued to work there and served faithfully for nearly a year and a half while she went to a healthy church and received encouragement messages from a wonderful pastor. Several times I was threatened with my job, but I continued to support my wife (husbands love your wvies...) and allowed her the freedom to work through her pain at having been rejected by a church that had promised us we would not be asked to leave.

In the end, God led us to a healthy, vibrant, growing church where wounded people are loved on and given room to heal. I’m not sure my precious wife would have faired as well had she been subjected to such unloving conditions every single week.

I disagree with others who would have said that I was not the leader in my home. Conversely, I took a strong leadership position to serve and love my wife and family rather than the church. Pastors are supposed to lead the flock AND their families from a servant’s position, not a self-serving, lording it over, position.

Nora - wow. I figured I would get hammered for what I said, prolly still will. I used to be one of those men who “controlled” my wife because of the ministry. Today I don’t. She is a beautiful individual created in God’s image. One person over on the Yahoo! group actually said that the person’s marriage could be wrecked if she went to another church. I think the opposite is true - I helped save our marriage by honoring my wife. : )

I can appreciate the Pastor’s wives pain, after reading all the blogs posted I am sure there would be ointment to the wounds you may bare. Jesus is our “Good Samaritan” He comes to pour wine and oil in our wounds to heal us and restore us, He also provides a way where robbers have stolen our joy and caused us with a feeling of loss and emptiness of what we did have. This bible verse can be ministered in many ways, because that is Jesus, He meets our needs and touches us in our hearts. I could really relate to the grief or even if it is a senario to help those in this particular predicament. Pain is a real issue and the pain we bare needs to be addressed and treated with patience and care, allowing it to heal as some wounds go deep, especially when you have or face alot of people that can carry alls sorts of things with them on their person because of their backgrounds, it is unfortunate that some folk in the body of Christ carry their past with them and lash out as a weapon of attack, this is of course a senario, but at the same time we need to have the compassion of Christ for the body, if you are called to this body or any body of Christ you need to have sacrifical love for all members including your husband. I believe God wants to heal His body collectively, individually, corporately, He desires for His body to be whole, including those that are hurting and those that you possibly don’t see that are hurting. Pain comes from hurt and when we are in pain we can have the ability to hurt others in the process of our pressure points. I believe you can overcome this by focusing on why your husband has been called and why you are called. Are you called to the body (yes) or too yourself? You are important, don’t get me wrong, you are vital and you need personal help, personal care from another trusted pastor who can recognise your wounds from spiritual discernement and treat you with God’s love but at the same time because of your role and position, the people are important in their pain and when you find healing in your pain, you will heal others more sensitively with Christ’s love. Hugs I hope things work out.

My Wife attends sunday school and church and works in the nursery..etc and goes to worship but has no desire to attend mid week or sunday evening.  I am the youth pastor and I have felt the pain from time to time and the problem that a few members have with that.  We have discussed it as a family and we have not changed what we do.