Sam, I am a little confused.  You say “The average congregant is woefully biblically illiterate because pastors feel like they have to dumb down biblical terms such as justification, propitation, and sanctification. “

And; “So, when congregants are self feeding as you say they do in your church and come across words such as justification, sanctification, and propitation, you are saying that 21st century Americans do not need to know these terms? How sad is it for you to say that propitation should mean nothing to 21st century American. Packer summed up the NT by saying something to the effect: “adoption through the propitation of Jesus”. I woudl subject that if these terms mean nothing to 21st century American “Christians” then they are not truly saved. “

Biblically illiterate?  I’m afraid I confess I must also be illiterate, for I cannot find “propitation”.

Do you mean “propitiation”?  That which propitiates; atonement or atoning sacrifice; specifically, the influence or effects of the death of Christ in appeasing the divine justice, and conciliating the divine favor. (Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary)

Please…

Wendi:

“To follow your thinking to its logical end, why do we need to do anything with regard to lost people?  The great commission really means that we should go and look for only those who are already found and then disciple those, because we have no part in evangelism.  Those drawn by the HS will eventually be found, regardless of what we do or fail to do.  We are irrelevant in the process.”

You can’t be serious.  The context of my comments in this discussion have been in line with Sam’s well-articulated points about the gimmicks and such in the church.  I’m all about evangelism and reaching the lost; relevant to this conversation, there is a distinct difference between worship and evangelism, and crossing that line with “Iron Man” and “Best Sex Life Now” sermons is where I start speaking up.

“Some will make decisions and then later fall away . . . in every one of our churches (even though you refuse to admit this could possibly happen in your perfect churches).”

You’re right, and, for what it’s worth, I would never, ever call my church perfect.  We cannot certify someone’s profession of faith on the spot--we have to wait to see the outcome.  Which is also why I believe in “just say a prayer and ask Jesus into your heart” type altar calls can be so dangerous, for giving that false sense of security.

“These are the folks I want to learn from, since this is what kept Jesus awake at night.”

Wait, what verse is that?

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CS

Sam,

This seems like such a senseless, pointless argument.  When I was living separate from Christ, I could feel an emptiness inside.  I tried to fill that emptiness with many things; wine, women, song, work, experiences, etc.  Nothing would fill the void.

I was seeking something to fill that emptiness.  Was I seeking God or was God calling me?  Both, I believe. 

When people are living a life separate from God they can feel that emptiness and they seek to fill it.  Are they seeking God or is God calling them?  Who cares, it’s a stupid thing to argue about.

If a church strives to reach the lost for Christ, is that a problem for you?  If they say they are “seeker-sensitive” because they try to reach out to people who fell an emptiness inside and seek to fill that emptiness and the church knows that what will fill that emptiness is a relationship with God, is it the reaching out to people that you have a problem with or is it just the terminology “seeker-sensitive”?

I thank God that our church is reaching people and growing and discipling the small part of the body of Christ that God has entrusted to our church.  And I thank God that our church is still small enough that the self-appointed church watchdogs leave us alone.  My Pastor wants to try his hand at writing a book, I hope he knows what he’s getting into; if you write a book concerning any facet of Christianity you can bet there’s a watchdog out there somewhere who won’t like it and will start a blog to accuse you of heresy. 

And finally, I would remind you that Matthew 12:36 (NIV) says:
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

Saying that a Christian believer is “not truly saved” because they may not know theological terms like propitiation are careless words you will someday have to give account for, imho.

Todd, I love the stuff you post to make us think and “do” church better, but I’ve really got to stop reading the comments. So much of it is just discouraging, the petty bickering and inane arguments.

Brian, I would say that part of striving towards sanctification is understanding the meaning of it. AND because the word sancitfy is used in the Bible then Christians should know what it means. This isnt some “seminary word” such as Antinomianism. And why cant you teach your people what it means? How does it minimize what you want to happen in people’s lives? It is dumbing down when you will not use terms that are used in the Bible and help your congregants understand some harder concepts that they may come across in their personal bible study.

Changed lives is not the issue. People can have changed lives within the church apart from true salvation.

All you guys; I was a member of WC for years, before “retiring”. Sure, Willow does not make TOTALLY/ fully/ 100% effective followers of Jesus!. That’s the job of the Holy Spirit, not any church’s responsibility. I’d be willing to guess that Sam’s ‘perfect church that he’s a working memberof” is not all that effective.
We must remember that conversion is not a one-time total event. Many converts fight the nurturing of the Holy Spirit, and take many, many years to ‘get up to speed’. From the sounds of Sam’s comments, he hust be at the toe of the curve. He really doesn’t know how Christians need to cooperate (not nit pick & fight among theirselves) to reach all our neighbors with the Gospel.
So, come on guys, stop picking on each other & cooperate.

Sam & ne1 else still reading.
was thinking further with regard to 1 Corinthians 14.  From vs 22 we know that tongues are for unbelievers who attend church, and from vs 26-28 we know that tongues were part of every service.

So there was to be specific stuff for unbelievers in every service so that they may come to faith (vs 25). 

Which sounds an awful lot like being seeker sensitive, where every service contains stuff for unbelievers that they may come to faith.

Given that 1 Cor 14 is the most detailed account of ‘doing church’ in the NT, the biblical argument is probably over.  Obviously the church service is for both believers and unbelievers and serves an evangelistic purpose.

Be Blessed,

The “seeker Sensitive” approach is really a misnomer as described by many fundies.  It is such a wide swath that unless you are seeker insensitive you are “one of them”

CS, the clear point of Paul’s writing that you miss is that Paul was saying be sensitive to those who are not believers in your midst.  Be aware of those in your church who do not know Christ. 

This would seem that there were people in the church on a regular basis who might be “seeking” or checking out what this whole Christianity thing was.  It could also be that the church throughout history has been the tool by which the mystery of God is revealed and as such should be “sensitive” to the unbelievers around and in their midst. 

I find it so stupid that churches spend most of their budget on keeping saints happy when the cost of living an entire life without Christ is so high and the cost of dying without Christ is even higher. Then when some people have the courage and conviction from the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to say let’s go build a church that unbelievers would not run from, be repelled by, confused by and shut out from.  Let’s go build a church that communicates both Grace and Truth.  Let’s go build a church built upon the great commission and the greatest commandment.  Let’s go build a church that actually seeks and saves those who are lost.  Let’s go build a church that sinners run to like they did with Jesus. 

I find it stupid that people have the blindness and uneducated thinking that God built the church for them to sit and worship him and get a bible message. The church was built to do God’s work in this world, reveal the mystery of God in this world in such a way as the heavens would sit up and take notice that God is.

Agreed Wendi, Jesus did seem to care about those who were lost.  A whole lot more that nearly every church in America.  One way to get in trouble as a pastor is to care about the lost.  It makes “Christians” uncomfortable because you might not take good care of them or their kids.  It pushes people to think and feel differently about their literal neighbor. 

So many people spend their time nitpicking and complaining about people who are actually trying to fulfill the great commission (making disciples) that they become experts who never did anything.  They read the book they have no real life experience for reaching the lost or growing the found other than what they perceive as wrong with those who are actually doing something.

JOb, you make an argument no one here is making.  No one is saying (Hybles Included) the church is made up of unbelievers.  We are saying the gatherings should be sensitive to unbeliever since they have obviously been in attendance since the first century.

Wow, I can’t believe this is still going on. What fries me is how judgmental some of you are. To call what a “seeker-sensitive” church does as “antics” is going far beyond loving your brother. Why don’t some of you do church like you think church ought to be done and allow others to do the same.Who appointed some of you judge and jury? The church I serve is not “seeker-sensitive” as such, but we are very much aware of unbelievers coming to our services and we create an atmosphere that will welcome them and yet we have not stopped preaching the Bible.
Go use some of your time to talk to someone about Jesus and stop this.

JOB
Book, chapter and verse, please.

Leonard Lee:

First, let me correct something I should have said earlier.  I do forgive you for taking things from our e-mails.  I know I shared some things in public, and some things in private in e-mail, and I had felt a line was crossed.  Whichever the case, I harbor no grudge against you.  And to chime in to this topic…

“Let’s go build a church that actually seeks and saves those who are lost.”

Yes!  We should be going to do Jesus’ mission for us in seeking and saving the lost.  Absolutely!  And if churches are nothing more than social clubs for the elect, that’s awful.  I agree with you here.  But using regularly scheduled worship services does not seem to be the defined way of doing so, by example or by command.  Which bridges onto…

Wendi:

“I’ve read and heard all the scripture you’ve tossed around, but I don’t believe you or Sam or others have made a biblical case that creating weekend services that are sensitive to seekers (or lost people or unbelievers or non-Christians) is in any way “unbiblical.””

Here’s my case.  Using worldly means, such as movies, sex talks, financial stability, and marital bliss to draw in “seekers” as is done by most seeker-sensitive churches is unbiblical.

James 4:4.  “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

When our sermons and methods of drawing people in conform to the world and the love of things of the world, it is wrong.  Sermons on “Desperate Housewives” and “You Have Great Potential” conform more to the world than they do to the Bible, and show that we have a love of the world.

If our sermons do things like explain the Gospel in a way in which the unsaved could understand, that is fantastic, but worship is for believers to worship God.

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CS