I also got a little more wrecked in my heart about “stupid poverty”. I’m almost afraid to watch Rick talk about it. I might just go off the deep end. But we need to feed all our holy discontents, and that’s one of them. Yes I’ll watch. We will always have the poor, but we CAN do something about “stupid poverty” just like the saints did for the poor of Jerusalem during Paul’s time. That was a holy discontent for him, too…

John 3:36

What a surprise that you would say that!

It is amazing to me how those who are ardently opposed to RW and his PEACE plan are taking semantic arguments so out of context. The P in PEACE is “Plant Churches"… churches who evangelize, no doubt, since Warren places such a high value on evangelism. The E stands for “Equip servant leaders”, no doubt the very leaders who would get fired up about evangelism…

These arguments you’re making are tired and old. I’ve read RWs PDL and PDC. (Have you? You have, in recent days, made similar comments about authors and books you’ve admittedly not read as I recall.) Evangelsim, repentance, it’s all over those works… The condemnations that folks like yourself have made have been heard and found wanting by many of us, and they’ve been discussed to death on this forum and others. No reason for us to go down this path again.

Go, Rick!

I truly hope to see the question come up to Warren in front of this mass audience as to where he stands on Jesus being “The only way”.  I would love to see him shine for Christ and show alliegence to him regarding this crucial question.  We have been seeing much disapointment in this area in recent times with Joel and Billy.

3:36, Peter’s comments probably sum up how most of us feel about RW criticism.
Anyway, as much as I am unable to whole-heartedly embrace RW’s theology, what he is doing is wonderful, and I praise God and bless him for it.  I always find it ironic when people quote Jesus to justify their narrow theology requirements when Jesus almost always points to behavior rather than theology (remember the sheep and the goats?  they aren’t separated by their theology, but rather by… ... whether or not they fed the hungry and gave to the poor… hmm...).
My two cents.

John 3:36

James 2:17-18 So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is no faith at all--it is dead and useless.  Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” I say, “I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds.”

James 2:24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Isn’t what RW is trying to do a product of his faith?  A demonstration and affirmation of his faith?

Your condemnation of his PEACE plan as humanistic because neither E stand for Evangelize is ridiculous.  What makes you think that would force governments to avoid it if P for Plant Churches won’t?  I would be embarassed to fabricate such an argument against a program to help the less fortunate.

James 4:11 Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters.  If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. But you are not a judge who can decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it.

I’m not saying I agree with everything RW says and does, but he seems to me to be acting on his faith.  His faith does not seem to be “dead and useless”.  How would James view your faith?  Dead and useless?

Thanks John 3:36, however, I have a great desire for both of us (all of us, really) to “examine efforts by the word of God.” Your statement seems to indicate that you think that I am not examining efforts as such and that you are. I think that implication is clear, and a trifle impolite. I’d ask for a little care on this. I am remembering a week or two ago when you posted some pretty vicious criticism of Brian McLaren without having yourself read any of his works. I’m wondering if you’ve read Rick’s for that reason. I do NOT find an incomplete picture of the Gospel in PDL and PDC; on the contrary, I find a very complete understanding of Jesus’ good news based on the great commandment and great commission.

And… Rick Warren has never promised peace with God to someone outside of the faith in Christ we share. Not as far as I know, and I’ve heard him speak a number of times and read his work. We could trade quotes from his books back and forth, but… again… this is ground that has already been covered here.

I grow weary of the pro- and anti- Rick Warren debate, but then again, this whole post is kind of about that. Let’s maybe all watch the interview on Sunday and then perhaps come back to the table at that point.

Blessings,
Peter

And now back to the original conversation, yes I will be weatching and yes I hope that Rick Warren is faithful to the Jesus we love and serve. I would expect that. But I also know that what we will see is what Fox wants us to see and nothing more. Out of a 2 - 3 hour interview we will see a carefully edited 40 mintues or so if the program is an hour. So it may well be that what says and what is shown are two different things.

Thank you BeHim, I know what compassion means.  Since we both seem to be in possession of a dictionary, we can hopefully agree that there are several possible definitions of humanism; one of these is secular humanism, which vaguely resembles Satanism on some points (particularly in its rejection of religion and in its emphasis on ‘looking inside oneself’ for strength).  But humanism (again, according to the dictionary--something we both have access to) can also be broader than that--it can genuinely mean caring for people (as in ‘humanitarian’).  I was hoping it would be obvious I was playing on that definition.
BeHim, I was wondering what you make of James 1:27: “Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
Could it be that in your emphasis on the latter you are judging others (case in point, our brother Rick Warren) who are trying to do the former?

[BeHim, I was wondering what you make of James 1:27: “Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”]

The book of James is a book that primarily focuses on the result of Justification by faith alone which is the opposite side of the same coin.

We as Christians can unite with all humanitarian aide to help widows and orphans but just because a person helps widows and orphans doesn’t make them Christian.

[Could it be that in your emphasis on the latter you are judging others (case in point, our brother Rick Warren) who are trying to do the former?]

What is Righteous Judgment?

Righteous judgment is juging a person’s proclaimed doctrine and their deeds.

scripture says:
Jesus rebukes the Pharisees over thier doctrine and deed (Matt 23) woe unto you pharisees and Scribes
Jesus says give not that which is holy unto the dogs neither cast your pearls before swine (Matt 6)
These parts of scripture allow us to make Righteous judgments like Paul for example:
Hymenous and Alexander in 1 Timothy 1
2 Timothy 3 and 4 All scripture is given - leaving sound doctrine for itching ears.

What is unrighteous judgment?

Unrighteous judgment is judging a person’s heart and judging according to a double standard.

I cannot judge RW’s heart. 
scripture is clear that ONLY God can judge a person’s heart (Samuel).

I cannot use a double standard in judging (a man can commit adultry but his wife cannot)

Another example:  By which judgment you judge this judgment you will be judgment (Matt 6).

We need to refrain from judging a person’s heart and according to a double standard.

Now what I’ll be accussed of is making an unrighteous judgment of RW because you consider that what I say is judging his heart when in fact I am not judging his heart but his proclaimed doctrine.

You also want to seperate RW’s deeds from his doctrine which is a huge mistake because then we can conclude from deeds that Bono’s deeds could make him a Believer or any other person who takes care of orphans or widows in their misfortune, regardless of what they believe or do not believe about Jesus.

What is interesting about your statement about me judging RW is that you assume I am judging his heart.  In doing this now you are judging my heart.  Now who is in sin?

I for one hope that Pastor Warren does NOT present the Gospel unless asked. If you invite me to your home to talk about your kids or your dogs, and I ignore the subject and just go on my own particular tirade… I won’t be asked back.

As it connects with what Rick is asked and what is discussed, I trust, based on what I know of him, that he will present a clear Christ-following worldview. But it is a news show and not a pulpit.

John 3:36.

I will see what I want to see? Well, at least I actually looked…

I would suggest this… My enthusiasm is much less subjective than your pessimism, since I have actually read the work of the individual who I am defending, while you, as I suspected was the case, have not. It is okay for believers to not be well-read with every author they encounter or might encounter and to make decisions about what to read and hear based on what they hear from those they trust. I applaud those kinds of life-decisions… However, I take great exception to folks like yourself making sweeping generalizations in a public forum (as you have now about both Brian McLaren and Rick Warren) merely based on hearsay, without reading these author’s works. Let’s lead the discussion on the things we know, not the things we suppose.

BeHim,

Do you not have the ability to answer a question with a straight answer?

When asked what you think of James 1:27 you respond:  “The book of James is a book that primarily focuses on the result of Justification by faith alone which is the opposite side of the same coin.”

What???

James primarily focuses on things other than faith alone, like works.  Works like Rick Warren is undertaking.

James 2:17-18 So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is no faith at all--it is dead and useless.  Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” I say, “I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds.”

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You say that you disagree with RW’s doctrine and state “You (Daniel) also want to seperate RW’s deeds from his doctrine which is a huge mistake because then we can conclude from deeds that Bono’s deeds could make him a Believer or any other person who takes care of orphans or widows in their misfortune, regardless of what they believe or do not believe about Jesus.”

Can you not disagree with someone’s doctrine and still applaud his deeds?  Is it really necessary to condemn a man’s deeds because you disagree with what you think his doctrine is?  It’s not like you can really know what’s in his heart, you read what he writes and listen to what he says but only God knows what’s in his heart.  According to James, a man’s deeds are a reflection of his faith, and when I look at Rick Warren’s deeds I see evidence of righteous faith.

With all the poor examples of Christian leaders in the media these days, can’t we offer a simple prayer that Rick Warren’s interview will glorify God and wish him the best in his endeavors for the church.