Interesting that “me” wasn’t brave enough to put his real name on his post.

What Mr. Young is talking about does happen and it isn’t right. 

But that’s also how things work in a fallen world.  Go home and complain about it to your wife or vent to your friend over lunch, don’t post a video on YouTube and ask for your staff to post to your blog.

Man up!

Read what Paul said about a similar situation in Phil. 1:15-18: “Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will:  16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.  18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.”

Re” I was appalled at what seemed to be some comments by people who might actually think joining a church with the intention of building a following and then splitting the church might be a wise idea.”

I didn’t see anyone suggest this.

Apart from the “divide and multiply” when you are actively sending out members to help new pastors establish plants even in your own neighborhood, typically there isn’t anyone left for a plotter to lure away.  Those who are adventurous or inclined to do something else have already left, but in a positive way.  And sometimes, once the new work is established, they come “home.”

Thanks for sharing from a senior pastor’s point of view.  My husband and I have pastored for many years and have witnessed and experienced the pain of the ‘pirates’--once from our own family member whom we brought on staff because no one else would ‘give him a chance’ (we know why now).  The damage that was done was not only to the church, but to our family.  We have forgiven (we’re neighboring churches), but some pain lingers, especially for our children.

We spoke at a church years ago and the pastor drove us by his church late in the evening and the lights were on.  He told us his associate was having a meeting there.  He went on to say ‘he’s getting ready to split my church and my hands are tied.  I’ve had to leave it in the Lord’s hands.’ A couple years later, we received an invitation to a pastor’s conference and one of the workshops was conducted by this associate--it was entitled ‘How To Begin A New Church’ I purposely attended the workshop--and it was amazing.  The associate said ‘all you have to do is put a large ad in the paper and let the people know ‘who you are’ He went on to say, ‘I did that and I had 300 the very first Sunday’ Wonder why?  The good news--the senior pastor’s church has recovered and is growing.

You are right that many associates or staff seemingly take on the ‘victim’ mentality.  What the associates seemingly do not understand is that it is the senior pastor who has promoted them so the church will accept them.  As senior pastors, we have brought on some who are inexperienced, trusting them and training them for ministry.  As time goes on and the staff person does not have the ‘spotlight’ or recognition he feels he deserves (or the Lord is truly speaking to the person to move on out of their comfort zone and the person doesn’t want to move), then the staff person seemingly feels justified to begin to share weaknesses of the senior pastor never realizing how the senior pastor has overlooked and covered the weaknesses of the associate/staff.  Then when enough people are drawn to his side through half truths and inuendos, suddenly the staff person feels ‘called’ to be begin a ‘new’ work.  And the senior pastor almost always looks like the ‘bad guy’ regardless… What confusion this has brought to the body of Christ. 

I believe there is such a thing as ‘true’ church planting BECAUSE IT IS THE SENIOR PASTOR’S VISION.  Then the staff person is sent forth with the church blessing.  Church planting should build the body, not divide the body.

There is a call for ethics among the ministry and it is time to speak out.  From one senior pastor to another, thanks for your courage to be honest!

Ed’s just being ridiculous here.  He’ll regret this later.  It’s not like there aren’t 20 other mega churches in Dallas already.  not sure why he’s so bent out of shape over this.  The corporate analogy is paper thin and he’ll realize it sooner or later.

My take is that, most of the time, it’s not the best option for a pastor to leave a church only to plant another down the road because, let’s face it, the majority of the time there’s just an issue of bad blood.  That’s the issue that needs to be nipped in the bud.  But if there is a significant orthodoxy or orthopraxy disagreement, I’d say it’s permissable.

But have those hard conversations FIRST.  Seek some form of reconciliation FIRST.  Then follow wherever God leads.  While my feelings on Fellowship are conflicted, Ed’s got to be smart enough to understand this.

Peter...I’m sorry to have inferred from your post that you had any personal experience.  I read your post wrong.

As to your comments, I see two monumental problems with your dogmatic assessment of Young’s comments.

1.  Regardless of how many times I watch the video, I don’t interpret it in the same way as you...and evidently, many others fail to see what you see as well.  Either you’re enlightened and we’re dull or...maybe we all read/hear things differently.  I maintained (and still do) that much of what Young says can not be understood outside the context of the situations he refers to in his opening remarks.  Which leads me to the second problem with your assessment.

2.  While I’m not 100% sure, I believe I now know what primary situation brought about this video/message.  If I’m correct, then your assessment is either wrong, or it would make Young out to be a man that has grossly mischaracterized the situation to which he refers.  I prefer to believe the former rather than assume the worst of Young’s character.  If I’m wrong about which situation Young is referring to, then I suppose your assessment is as valid as anyone’s.

Carole...good word.  I’m guessing you are privy to what this is all about.

Matt...agreed.  I’m also conflicted.  Ed has always seemed like a good guy...Fellowship has done some really good things.  This whole video just seems unnecessary and bound to cause confusion and rabid and wild speculation that is not needed.

Brett...I don’t think he’s talking about a church staff member, personally.  I think this is ALL about a friend of his...just like he said in his opening comments.

Dave,
You are so right.  We’ve all been so blessed out from under the authority of this leader.  There was love for God, His word and for each other beore a spirit of contention came to visit.  There was a “family” of love.  Then behind the scenes familes were split, lies, innuendoes, threats and secret meetings, developed.  It was a relief to walk away.

God was there and saw it all.  (Oh, the desire to block another study was to keep total control.) We are free.  We are to follow THE MAN, Jesus first.

****Posted by Mark
Tuesday, May 27, 2008 at 8:52 AM
I’m glad to see Ed Young be honest and admit that he sees church as a profit making corporation, which it is, and that anyone of his “employees” who deprives him of his rightful “profits” should be in jail just as in the corporate world....

Give your tithes instead directly to the poor as Jesus commanded.  When the cash flow dries up, then we will see who really believes and who is just in it for the money. ****

Agreed!!!  How many would be serving today if there was no pay as in His day?

I am shocked that someone would think that if a senior pastor does not regognize Gods call on a man then he is not called. Senior pastors are not always right. This is a slap in Paul the apostles face. Who sent him out at first? Jesus Christ did. At first, the disciples wanted nothing to do with him. Thank God for Barnabas! Even after this, Paul made this same foolish mistake with John Mark. He later calls for Mark and says that he is profitable for him. I pray that these men have a change of heart as Paul did and realize that just because they do not like what someone is doing it doesnt mean that God is not leading them.

Rick, I’m confused, I quoted Ed directly. I watched the video again, and I’m mystified as to how you could interpret his “rant” as anything other than a statement against people who attempt to split a church from within. When is that ever right?

I can’t say I agree with Ed.  Sure sometimes there are people who come in with bad intentions from the beginning...but it’s hard for me to believe that someone came in and was bidding their time for 20 years, before splitting the church as a “church plant.” Sounds to me more like a senior pastor who never knew how to promote, release and bless a younger leader.  Think of how much grief Saul would’ve missed if he knew how to celebrate David’s gifts and victories.

I have two convictions that I minister by… 1) God has called me to pastor the city, not just my congregation.  2) I can’t do it alone.  Those two convictions have led me to give away people to new church plants that we haven’t even started.  Even if they do meet down the block.  Why?  Because every congregation that is started in my city helps me fulfill God’s purpose. 

Maybe Ed’s city is different, but in our city we have less than 20% of the people in church on any given weekend.  We need all the congregations we can get.  I’ll even let them use our building.

I rarely comment on blogs, but I think the it takes a lot of temerity to make a speech like that and post it on the web. That looked little too much like a betrayal speech from Hamlet to me. He should have held a skull the whole time.

I am still waiting for someone to do the elongated soliloquy about “major” churches that get started in church-saturated markets by guys leveraging their parent’s name brand recognition (or by merger-acquisition) and grow by siphoning off members of smaller less “phenomenal” churches.

I lost count of the church starts I have seen that have been educated and funded by denominational money, that “betrayed” their denomination when their support dried up or if they couldn’t see how cooperative missions could benefit their church in some way. Instead of thinking symbiotically and supporting mission giving, they create their own fiefdom-sized mini denominations.

They usually say they wanted out of the denomination to get away from programmatic approach of the bureaucrats there. Then they head off and create uber-programed tightly-branded franchsies of their home church.

This speech has been made already by denominational leaders that have had their churches drained by leaner stealthier organizations. They had no way to react to the “market share” tactics of “phenomenal” churches who came in and drained their members, because they were too large and too bureaucratic to manage rapid change. These groups always played the “God told me to card” as they parlayed their gains into rock star status. “What comes around goes around.”

I didn’t agree with all that Ed said, but he does address a problem that arises far too frequently within the church.  I’ve seen this happen many times within churches-a staff member is hired, but he/she has other ideas, and actively seeks to start his/her own church by recruiting members to go with him/her.  This is far more than a pastor growing dissatisfied with an aspect of the church’s teaching or direction, but often reveals a dishonesty about one’s real purpose for joing a chuch’s staff in the first place.  This individual, rather than supporting the vision and ministry to which he/she is hired, actively works at sewing discord and disharmony by undercutting the senior pastor and other staff members through quiet but constant criticism.  This type of person has honesty issues, and works to split the church, and to get others to follow him/her..  Anyone who has been in ministry for very long knows that not all in ministry are honest or trustworthy individuals.  I believe that this is the situation to which Ed is referring-where a staff member joins a church staff and, with the intention to quietly, actively, and dishonestly undermine the ministry and the leadership.  I’ve seen this happen more than once, and the wounds it produces are long-lasting.  The situation I’m thinking of as I write this has lasted over 35 years.  The pastor who intentionally joined a staff with the intention of starting his own church, actively recruited people to go with him, and to leave the ministry to which he had been hired.  His church and the denominational church he used to “jump start” his church, which he had been planning to start for several years before joining the former chuch staff where he was hired, that schism has yet to heal.
So, it isn’t about stealing congregants, it’s about creating dissention and disharmony to achieve an end.  The pastor I mentioned above was hired on at one of the churches with some of the wealthiest church members in town.  Plus, these were the people he worked to create dissatisfaction, so that they would leave with him.  His motives were what were being questioned here, and Ed might have been referring to something like this without mentioning any specific names.