It depends. If you have some SERIOUS issues with your church/leaders/staff and are looking for a new position, then, maybe not. Chances are they’d have a pretty good idea of the problems and could make your life a living hell. Perhaps you simply need to wait till you’re at a point in the process where you’re sure you’ll be leaving, but not while you’re in the “exploratory” phase. That’s if your current relationship is really bad.

I would tell my Executive Pastor, but we have a great relationship, and I have a great relationship with all the leaders at my church. I’d probably tell ‘em.

But another thing… You need to leave well, so regardless of what and when you tell them, you need to give LOTS of notice and not leave messes for the next person. And… if your current work relationship is bad, look HONESTLY and see how much of it is your fault. Otherwise you take the same problems with you to the new place.

I agree with Nora… At the same time, I want to be in a place where I have the freedom to share this kind of information without retribution...which is not always the case.  I dont know the setting of Seacoast, but I do know that when I went to my former seniot pastor and let him know that I was talking to a different church (exploratory) he “wrote me out of his heart” (his exact words about a year later). 

It is great for Geoff to be on his high horse (I wonder how much of this is written out of anger or frustration), but the truth is that church leadership is not always healthy enough to deal well with these situations, and you can end up doing more harm than good by bringing it up.

I would like to add one caveat here, however.  I do think there is a difference between, as Geoff said, “fishing for discontent” and honestly trying to determine if it is the Lord’s will that the staff person make a move to your church.  Obviously, the former is not going to do much to advance the Kingdom, while the latter may.

I guess I disagree, I think it would be appropriate to talk to the SP of a church about recruiting one of the church staff, because we’re not talking about just business, but something which should be more ethical and have higher standards.  Not so much asking permission as just informing.

Something along the lines of “You have John/Jane Doe on your staff doing X for you and we think we have an position/opportunity we think would be a good fit/good opportunity for him/her and we’d like to talk to him/her to see if he/she would be interested.” Maybe SP calling Sp to say I’d like to have my search team contact your staffer and wanted to let you know ahead of time.

Any way the SP responds should not necessarily stop you from contacting the staffer you’re interested in, but it seems to me like it would be a good courtesy, especially since we ARE supposedly all on the same team, right?  Churches shouldn’t consider themselves in competition with each other, should they?

I wouldn’t expect the same level of respect or courtesy from a professional headhunter service, but then I wouldn’t expect a headhunter to necessarily care about the welfare of either church, they’re concern will be to find you someone you can hire so they can collect their fee.  They’re in business and church should be more than just business.  IMO

I know of a situation where a church recruited a well liked Asst. Pastor from another local church who ended up taking much of the congregation with him and years later there are still hard feelings between the Pastors and between the congregations.  Hard feelings which could have been avoided if it had been handled better.

Then again, the title of the article is How to Steal a Church Staff Member, so if you’re really about “stealing” someone from another church you probably wouldn’t want to advertise that.  But if it’s truly a good opportunity for the person to serve God, and not just a position you need to fill, I would think you’d want it known that you acted openly and ethically instead of secretively.

Generally I agree with DanielR, especially if both churches are in the same community.  It is really important to retain relationships between churches that share a geographic mission field.  On the other hand, if the SP is known to be difficult to work with or the church some degree of dysfunction, a call to the SP could actually undermine the very “star” you are fishing for.

From an equipping standpoint, this thread is an important reminder that we as leaders should always be seeking to challenge those we lead (lay and staff).  Even in the best working environment, on most loving and highly functioning team, a person will eventually feel stale about their work, ready for something new, fresh and more challenging.  At this point they are more “discontent” and our team becomes vulnerable.  Not only should we hold people with an open hand, encouraging them to feel free to move on if the Lord leads them to something new, but I believe we should always be HELPING THEM move up a level.  This doesn’t necessarily mean changing teams.  Often it can just be allowing people’s jobs to evolve so that the work remains challenging. 

And Peter makes a good point about leaving well.  Look in the mirror and not out the window.  Own and learn from our mistakes.  Even if the current management is horrendous, the team you are leaving must continue to work there and submit to the leadership.  Do not put them in the position of having to listen to your list of complaints about their church.

Wendi

Good article by Geoff, but I think it assumes a healthy church leadership.  As a Senior Pastor, I have told my staff team that they are great at what they do and for them not to be surprised if they are contacted by other churches or ministries.  I’ve also let them know to keep me in the loop so that we can talk and pray about it. 

When my staff has been contacted, it has been a great thing because they have to wrestle through the process of “where is God calling me to serve?” If God truly is calling them on, why in the world would I want to hold them here, because I know God has good things for them AND for us.  On the other hand, after wrestling with the issue they sense God definitely calling them to stay put, they are that much more committed to passionately serving in our church.  It should be a win-win no matter which way it goes.

I guess the challenge to Senior Pastors is, are you willing to let God rearrange your team?

Article said:
“Let’s say Seacoast has a staff member you want; someone who is really talented, who would really fill a hole in your staff, someone who could make the turnstile spin if they would just jump ship. What do you do? Do you call our pastor and say, “Hey, I’d like to talk to Superstar about joining my team, what do you think?” Do you call Superstar and say, “Have you ever thought about changing teams? We could really use a superstar like you.” Do you find a “Christian” head hunter company and get them to do the deed. Do you stay away from Superstar entirely because they’re “taken”? “

This whole attitude sounds so corporate and strange, to be happening in the church, Christ’s body…

Why wouldn’t a church be raising and discipling it’s own leaders?  Totally at a loss here!  Is it just that the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence...(another minister looks great on the outside, til you hire him, and find out he has flaws just like everyone eles)?  Or is it that people are impressed with large churches, and if there’s a large group, it must mean that the leader is super-effective?  For example, you might think Joel Osteen is a great preacher because of his large audience, but I would never consider hiring him.  I’m not aiming to build a large ministry or create a large following; rather teaching the truth per my convictions.  For many, I’m afraid their goal is to create a large following, supposing that to be their mission from God.  Whether your end goal is creating a large ministry or teaching the truth, you conduct yourself accordingly.  Therefore, with my focus on teaching and evangelism, I’m at a total loss as to why one would drool over hiring a leader from somewhere else, as if you need to recruit them as a star player.

...Bernie

In a perfect world this would work.  I think it is unrealistic approach.  Could it work maybe it some intances.  However I think it is best to talk to the candidate first and let them see if they will let you talk to the S.P.

My 2 cents

Bernie,

I can see why Geoff’s comment “someone who would make the turnstiles spin” would cause you to say:

[For many, I’m afraid their goal is to create a large following, supposing that to be their mission from God.  Whether your end goal is creating a large ministry or teaching the truth, you conduct yourself accordingly.]

However, I don’t think we should read motives about creating a large following or failing to teach the truth.  The reality is that there are all shapes and sizes of churches, and people fit differently in different environments.  It is also a reality that doing ministry today generally takes vocational ministers.  Even if a church is a model of Eph. 4, equipping and raising up new leaders, very few have the freedom to leave a marketplace career to move to vocationally ministry (though some do, I believe Peter Hamm did and I did).  That said, as a ministry grows and changes, they have to find people somewhere. 

And I don’t have a problem with Geoff’s comment about looking for a superstar.  I think he only means a highly gifted and tremendously motivated person who is sold out to the mission of my church.  Obviously I want to fill an open spot with the person God has in mind, but my due diligence in the process is to try and find the best person possible.  Fishing with integrity seems to me to be the best way to do that.

And of course, as Jade said, if a person has a resume out there, contacting the SP is unnecessary.  But that is not the situation Geoff’s article is about.

Wendi

Wendi-

I think the issue and debate is more along the old corporate debate: should you hire external or promote from within.  If a new church is growing, they should be discipling and growing their own leaders.  I can’t comprehend why they need to hire from the outside.  Maybe the problem is that church services have become too much like “performances” (Christian entertainment) instead of “fellowships” and you need to hire performers.

I used to attend a Calvary Chapel where some young believers moved into church leadership, usually via youth ministry, then eventually came on board as full ministers on staff.  That seems like the obvious way-- growing leaders within and even exporting them throughout the world.

...Bernie

Bernie . . . I agree that your suggestion of always “growing up” a leader is unrealistic.  Besides the time and energy required to learn ministry skills necessary for FT work, many churches expect staff pastors to have a seminary education.  People working as doctors, lawyers, engineers and school teachers are not going to be able to take a vocational break to prepare themselves in this way.  Rather, it is more often that people who serve in vocational ministry have sensed a particular calling and then go about their educational and vocational strategy accordingly.  From a kingdom perspective, it makes perfect sense for people to move between several local church ministries during a lifetime.  In fact, if the staff is always “home-grown” a great deal of perspective gets missed by not periodically bringing an outsider and newcomer onto the team.

Wendi

I think we come back to the debate of perfect world vs. reality.  I have seen too many examples of guys (myself included) that have done things the “right way” and gotten burned for it.  My favorite example is a friend of mine being called disloyal, and chastised by the elders of a church because another church in town asked him to consider taking a position with them (to which he eventually said no)… The beauty of this is that they approached the senior pastor before they approached the person that they were looking to recruit!

I have heard to many stories like these… and maybe it is a symptom of where I am, and the experiences that I have had with churches of late, but why is it necessary to stick your neck out that far when you are exploring an opportunity (meaning: not sure whether you are interested or not, but checking it out in a preliminary form)?

Bernie,

I hope you’ll hear my response to your last post as coming from a sister in Christ who has a genuine desire to dialogue with people who disagree so we can be to one another as iron that sharpens iron.

I sense, since you’ve jumped back in here at MMI (which I was glad to see), that you assume the absolute worst of every church, and nearly every ministry that hasn’t landed already on your “favorites” list. 

In response to me you said: [I think if it was a HEALTHY CHURCH (emphasis added), it would be producing its share of full-time Christian ministers.  There are constantly people like me, you, and Peter that are (or have) left secular work for full-time ministry.]

You imply that every single church that hires someone from outside isn’t healthy, and you have no way of making such judgments or generalizations.

And no Bernie, there are not CONSTANTLY people ready to leave the secular workplace for FT ministry.  I know this from experience both in the secular marketplace and ministry world.  Sometimes yes.  Constantly . . . no.  Should we be looking for them?  Absolutely.  Should we wait to fill a staff vacancy until God provides such a person?  Absolutely not.  To do so would be irresponsible.

Bernie, how many years of experience do you have serving on the management team of a church staff?  Or leading a church with multiple staff?  It is not that you need to have done so in order to earn the right to an opinion.  However, before accusing every church that hires people from the outside of being “unhealthy,” don’t you think you should have spent a few years in the shoes of those who have to periodically fill staff positions at their churches?

The longer I live and work in ministry, the more I don’t know.  Experience has a way of making us less expert rather than more so.  I find myself clamoring to ask questions and very cautious about offering definitive answers.  That is what I love about MMI.  Frankly, I’m not sure anymore that there are many definitive answers. 

But Bernie, your statements are always so definitive.  You come across as if you have everything figured out.  Most of us participate here because we haven’t figured everything out and we want help.  We make ourselves a little vulnerable by talking about what we don’t know.  So, personally speaking, when someone responds to my comments, without really knowing any details about my ministry or my life, by accusing me of “unhealthy” church leadership or being focused on “performance,” or . . . it’s really hard not to respond negatively. 

Wendi