Anytime or anyway we get side-tracked on doing church instead of committing to being church, we’ve done church wrong.  So my sense is that the whole conversation on how we do church is a total diversion form what truly matters.  I suspect that might make a bunch of the heated exchanges that have occurred on this blog just about completely irrelevant (something I suspect the readers of this blog DON’T want to be). 

I really do agree with George Harrison’s statement.  Why do we always side with the fear that we might water down truth in some way?  As foolish as people behave at times, they certainly aren’t stupid.  They know that life according to moral police doesn’t offer any more true joy than life according to self-gratification.  There’s a third way and it doesn’t have anything to do with style or structure.  Last time I studied it, seems like the most accurate meaning of repentance is to change one’s mind about something.  That’s why George’s biting conclusion “just believe what we tell you and shut up” is so chilling.  Most evangelicals are so afraid we will ignore sin and bypass repentance that they’ve turned it into a word that means weepy regret instead of a total reversal of mindset. 

All this talk about how to do church is just trading corporate secularism in for corporate religion.  Neither one reaches into the heart of relationship with God or others.  Just promote and practice Jesus.  “Sinners” always seemed to be attracted to Him for some reason.  If “sinners” are turned off by our “Christianity”, it may very well be because we have traded Christ-centeredness in for “Christ incorporated” with our particular eompany slogans, ethos and values.  That might make the boat run more straight, but what difference does it make if the boat is going in the wrong direction anyway?

I believe that this statement was a little to rash, harsh, unloving, insenstive, cold, and unchristian like. You cannot make someone or force someone to believe what you believe. You cannot make anyone believe in God for that matter.
Anyone who is in this position of teaching/preaching/ pastoring needs to be able and ready to teach at all times. But this is not being a teacher this is more along the lines of dictatorship.
Example: Several years ago a well known preacher made the comment about Ellen Degenerous “Ellen Degenerate” because she confessed that she was gay. We all know that the bible calls this a sin. But calling her a degenerate was not being a teacher and using it as teaching moment. Same rule applies here.

I believe Jesus would be disturbed with the way the church portraying itself.  We argue with each other and criticize one another in public.  I can’t believe some churches protest other churches.  The gas buydown is an example.  We need to point out sin in a church setting but using the media to attack one another brings no glory to the Bride of Christ.

Concerning doing church the wrong or right way. The only solution is for people to follow the “BOOK” Jesus is the living “WORD” If people are taught about Jesus then guess what, all will follow. It is that simple. Matt 6:33!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Todd’s question, “Is there a WRONG way to do church?”, I think the answer is a resounding YES! It seems to me that there are so many churches out there today who seem to promote the idea that if you are sitting in the pews each week, then that leads to sanctification. Kind of a “don’t bring your Bible, we’ll read it to you and tell you how to interpret it...” and “sin? What sin? As we’re reading the Bible to you, we’ll explain how it’s not relevant to our culture and our time...”

I heard a perfect illustration a couple of weeks ago; “If I sit in the garage all night, does that make me a car? Likewise, sitting in a church each week doesn’t necessarily make you a Christian.” Not sure specifically who said that, my wife could probably tell you, but I think it hits home with many people in our churches today. I know it describes some of the people in my church. It breaks my heart.

So, back to Todd’s question. In my humble opinion, the wrong way to do church is to allow people to continue to sleep in their faith. The wrong way to do church is not to challenge people to live their faith in love, as Peter mentioned. The wrong way to do church is to continue to allow the people in the pews to live dualistic lives, putting on their “church faces” on Sunday mornings, and living under the influence of the world the other 6 1/2 days of the week. The wrong way to do church is to sit on the Truth for fear of offending someone along the way or out of fear of stepping on toes, especially if it is someone who has enough influence to make your ministry difficult and ineffective.

You shall know the Truth and the Truth will set you free!

Not proclaiming the Truth is ultimately the wrong way to do church.

In Christ,
Tony

I certainly agree with George’s statement (I had a “this is the way we need to do it” conversation this morning!!) but also never want to fall into the trap of becoming the problem rather than the solution. Did anyone share Jesus with George?

Haven’t posted in awhile because I grow weary of the bickering.  I do want to say that the whole focus of Harrison’s comments has little to do with how to do church right OR wrong.  His focus was on the misrepresentation of Jesus.  Now...he may be WAY OFF on who he thinks Jesus is...but I think the same is true for many of us.  I know that my greatest failings are tied back to missing (or mistaking) the work and person of Jesus.

Is there a wrong/right way to do church?  If you aren’t centered and compelled by Jesus, His Gospel and His mission (assuming everyone here would use Biblical, interpretive integrity in determining who Jesus is what His Gospel is and what His mission for us is), then you’re doing church wrong.  It’s my only litmus test.  Make the real Jesus front in center in your church.  Get His Gospel right.  Get His mission right.  Everything else is just friendly debate…

Last thing.  While there are several consistent “devil’s advocates” who post, I’m probably a “lite version” of the devil’s advocate poster.  Can you guys handle one piece of constructive criticism?  There seems to be an “insider language” here that takes the form of massive assumptions.  For instance, many believe that if you “really love” lost people, you’ll do (insert a common pet method or ideal).  Many of the discussions here carry a level of assumption that prevents any substantive discussion until the truck can be backed up about 100 feet.  Anyway...those are my thoughts.  Later…

If George Harrison could weigh in on the Church of Jesus Christ in America in 2005 he’d level the same charge only with greater scorn.  He may not have known Jesus, but we deserve his criticism.

I agree with others who have pointed to some of the problems with the infighting of the universal church, the damage to our witness and the energy wasted on useless and endless criticizing while those who need Jesus in our backyards are ignored.

I see another problem with the proliferation of generalized criticism in the public arena.  Christians who had previously trusted their pastor and church leaders have become paranoid critics.  They sit in church on Sunday and instead of asking for the Holy Spirit to speak through their pastor into their own heart, they analyze the sermon.  Was there enough about sin?  Did he call for repentance?  Was he trying to make seekers feel comfortable?  Did he water down the truth?  Then they go into the lobby and down the hall, comparing notes and creating more distrust and dissention.

A friend one time told me about a terrible sin the Lord had just convicted her about.  She listened to a popular radio preacher everyday on the way to work.  For the past year nearly every show included some statement like “the problem with so many pastors today is . . . (fill in the blank)” All of a sudden she realized that she’d become suspicious of every sermon her pastor preached, looking for some hint of the crimes here favorite radio pastor was leveling against much of American Christendom.  She had begun to submit to the leadership of this radio guy more than the pastor and elders of her own church.  She never tuned in again and began that day praying for her church with renewed fervor.

Shame on those who have inappropriately (and unbiblically) insinuated themselves into the pastoral and leadership roles of churches across America.

Apostle Paul said:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
“19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[c] but under law toward Christ[d]), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as[e] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.”