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“Just Believe What We Tell You And Shut Up”

Orginally published on Monday, December 05, 2005 at 4:00 AM
by Todd Rhoades

Churchlady To start off today's Monday Morning Insight, I have a bit of a quiz for you. Here is a quote. I want you to guess who it's from. (No cheating... no googling on this one) I'll let you know the answer at the end of this article.

This quote was made nearly 25 years old ago now, but still rings true in some churches; it definitely is believed by many of the unsaved we in our ministries are striving to reach. Here's the quote:

"I think many Christian teachers today are misrepresenting Christ. They're supposed to be representing Jesus, but they're not doing it very well. They're letting him down very badly, and that's a big turn off.

But there's this morbid side to the way many represent Christianity today, where you don't smile, because it's too serious...just believe what we tell you and shut up."

What a terribly serious charge against the church of Jesus Christ in America.

As church leaders, it is our job to represent Christ to a world who doesn't know him. And how we make this presentation is of utmost importance.

Many times we argue about the right way to do church. (Boy, did we have a discussion here about that last week!) There are so many buzz words out there today... seeker-sensitive, seeker-driven, purpose-driven, multi-site, emergent; there are cowboy churches, hip-hop churches, even church services where pets are welcome. We have traditional, blended, contemporary, unplugged, country, and even island style worship.

So, while we argue about the right way to do church; what style to use; when we meet; how we dress; whether to plant or go multi-site; whether to be seeker-sensitive or purpose-driven (or how evil both of those two methods are); the very people we are trying to reach many times look at most churches as the writer of the quote above did... they look at us Christians (and our churches) as a bunch of people who are against everything; very serious; who want only to ram our beliefs down their throat. This image of Christianity must change. And it's up to each of us in our communities to make sure that our church (in cooperation with the Holy Spirit) relates the life-changing message of Jesus Christ in a way that will resonate with unbelievers.

That doesn't mean we water down our message. It doesn't mean that we don't discuss sin; or shy away from politically incorrect issues; or for individual's need for repentance. It simply means that we position our message so that we don't appear stale; stagnant; humorless; irrelevant; and as the quote above says, "morbid".

It seems to me that maybe we're asking the wrong question. Instead of "Is there a right way to do church?" Maybe the question should be, "Is there a WRONG way to do church?" And if there is, let's stop doing it! Last week we talked about the right ways to do church... what do you think are the wrong ways?

Oh, and who said the quote above? Beatle George Harrison said this in an interview back in 1982.

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TRACKBACKS: (0) There are 72 Comments:

Posted by

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 at 10:35 AM

BeHim,

No more long discussions here. Just to clarify though, I think there is a difference between denominationalism and sectarianism.

As I see it, denominationalism did grow out of differences [legitimate and non-essential differences] in doctrine and beliefs - but not as you suggest, from moving scripture to meet ones own needs. As I mentioned in another post - many of the heroes of our faith held to completely different and legitimate interpretations on non-essential issues of faith. This is fine. If you maintain that there is only one interpretation of scripture on every fine point of doctrine - then I disagree. I think church history shows that while there were certainly heresies, there have always been legitimately different interpretations among great Christian theologians regarding issues outside the circle of historic Christian orthodoxy.

Sectarianism is critical and exclusive. It separates one group from another instead of espousing unity regarding essentials and liberty regarding non-essentials, and charity in all things (does anyone know who I’m quoting? I can’t remember).
Posted by

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 at 11:36 AM

Wendi, I’m glad you clarified that but they are still synonyms with relative traits.

[If you maintain that there is only one interpretation of scripture on every fine point of doctrine]

Not every fine point of teaching Wendi but there is only ONE interpretation for the ESSENTIALS, like Salvation, The Gospel, etc… YES!!!

Determining what is essential and what is not essential is a more time consuming matter… some think the carpet is important, others think end times is important, etc…

BTW sound like Anne Baxter but I could be wrong:
In necessary things, unity; in doubtful things, liberty; in all things, charity.
Posted by

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 at 12:41 PM

Wendi,

The Peace Saying you quoted was not as many have alleged coined by the church father Augustine. It is rather the product of an irenic Lutheran theologian and pastor living in Augsburg during the early seventeenth century with the name of Peter Meiderlin. In the publication which contains the saying he used the Latin anagram of his German name: Rupertus Meldenius. Meiderlin lived in a very troubled time, a time exposed to the ravages of the Thirty Years War and one of much strife between Lutherans and Calvinists as well as a period of internal discord within Lutheranism itself. In this so-called “Confessional Age,” the Lutheran movement became a battleground for competing political forces.

This is the history of your quote...but personally, I would attribute the spirit of what it is saying as having come from the Lord through the apostle Paul when he wrote to the Church in Corinth:

“Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.”

By the way, you display this well in the spirit of your writings here.
Posted by

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 at 5:24 PM

Hey BeHim and JCE - thanks for the directions on my quote. I’d thought it was Augustine too, but am grateful for the history lesson.

Actually, I think getting to the essentials is pretty simple. We just complicate it and then it takes longer.

BTW - one position on interpretation is that there in fact IS only one interpretation in the mind of God as the HS inspired the writers of scripture. But . . . since we see through a glass darkly, humanity cannot completely know the mind of God this side of heaven. I’m thinking on that. I lean toward God, in His sovereignty made the essentials clear, actually intending some scriptures to be interpreted differently, so we could learn how to live in unity while interpreting the Holy Scriptures differently.
Posted by Brian La Croix

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 at 8:58 PM

I didn’t plan on posting on this thread, but twice now I’ve seen this: “Where two or three are gathered...” as justifications for your views on church.

PLEASE, I BEG OF YOU… Check the context of the passage. It has absolutely nothing to do with church or fellowship. The context is Church DISCIPLINE, not worship or worship services. Therefore, it is erroneous to use that passage as a foundation of this discussion.

Sorry, but I know all of us on this forum want to be people who correctly handle the Word of Truth.

BTW, I had to let loose of my previous views of this passage (which agreed with yours) after years of struggle and listening, reading, etc. But the context is inescapable, and therefore, so is the application of the passage.

Brian
Posted by

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 at 11:47 PM

I know exactly how you feel Brian
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 8:03 AM

Question for Brian & BeHim? I am asking this with a warm loving heart Ok. It is about the passage in Matthew 18:20. I am not wanting to offend you all or question and I am not doubting your interpertations, because I am a growing Christian.

What exactly was Jesus meaning here?
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 10:18 AM

Wendi writes “. . . since we see through a glass darkly, humanity cannot completely know the mind of God this side of heaven.”

This is one reason why I have admittedly changed my view on certain items over the course of my life in Christ. (I’m wrong sometimes… so are you… it happens...) But, as we were discussing in another post, there are some things I stick on. And yes, they’re in that dang-blast Nicene Creed again…
Posted by Brian La Croix

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 10:32 AM

Hi Tiko!

The basic meaning of the passage is that if two or three agree together regarding a brother who sins against you (see verses 15-17), then whatever you “loose” or “bind” is backed up by heavenly authority (v. 18).

Then Jesus reiterates that in verses 19-20, about agreeing in prayer, because Jesus is in the midst of them as they consider how to handle the situation.

By the way, I’m a firm believer that Jesus IS in the midst of “two or three” as they gather in his name for worship. But this is not the verse to use in teaching that. He is also with the ONE person who worships him privately in personal devotions, etc.

I know this might seem nit-picky, but I see passages taken out of their context and used to present truth, but while the Scriptures as a whole might support a given teaching, we need to be careful that our “proof-texts” are used accurately in their contexts.

Thanks for letting me rant, guys. As I mentioned to BeHim on another thread, I was having a tense day yesterday, and it had nothing to do with any of you!

Praying for God’s blessings on you all!

Brian
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 11:31 AM

so Brian if we gather at the building we call church for a cooking class are we having church.maybe a ladies workout.how about a yoga class is that still having church the right way .I just think if its not about Jesus its not having church the right way .that just might be my misunderstanding.Iam not trying to pull scripture out of its context.I just think it should be about Jesus if we are going to call it having church.By the way guys I thought that was the question is there a wrong way to have church.If not Iam sorry my bad.
Posted by Brian La Croix

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 11:40 AM

John Mac,

I agree with you!

My point is the verse I’ve been harping on (and unfortunately, hijacking the thread with - sorry Todd!) has nothing to do with worship or worship services, so using to support that view is an incorrect application of that passage.

The church building, in my opinion, is not the only place worship can take place. And not everything that happens in a church building is worship - just ask those who have to endure church board meetings!

So I think you and I are actually on the same page here, brother!

Brian

PS - I’m not going to post on this thread anymore, simply because I’m guilty of taking it off course and don’t want to continue to do that. If you would like to continue the discussion privately, please feel free to e-mail me at .
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 11:46 AM

Brian,

I’m not sure you’re interpretation is so cut and dried. I think it’s very possible that Jesus is starting a new thought in Matt 18:19, which is where the paragraph break is in the Greek, according to the most current scholarly edition of the text (NA27). I think it may be a new thought that is not necessarily expanding vs. 15-18. I’m not saying your interpretation is not valid, but my commentaries don’t go that way either (although they’ve been “wrong” before) and I don’t see it in the Greek text.

Just my thought on that,
Peter
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 12:22 PM

Actually Peter they do go together and it is not a new thought. The two or three is based on the two or three witnesses brought about in the judgment of someon in the OT. “Binding and Loosing” are legal terms of judgment (i.e., throwing in prison and setting free). The text is nowhere speaking about what constitutes a church. It has everything to do with church discipline. And you are right. The paragraphs are wrong a lot. Many times even scholars assume traditions of a text and therefore miss the meanings. But this one is definitely cut or dry. It just has to argue up hill against and evangelical tradition (as well as the 60’s song that used it out of context---"where two or three are gathered in my name, there is love").
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 12:31 PM

Wendi writes “. . . since we see through a glass darkly, humanity cannot completely know the mind of God this side of heaven.”

But we are meant to know the revelation He gave us. Because we can’t know everything does not mean we can’t know anything.

Deut 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe ALL the words of this teaching.”
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 1:17 PM

Tiko,

The passage in Matthew 18 is dealing with Church Discipline and is directly related to Old Testament law of witnesses and legal judgements.

Meaning, this is what we should all be doing when a Brother offends us… many times discipline today is handled with back biting and tale bearing, creating wrath upon wrath.

I agree with Brian that it should not be used to “prove” worship or a “church setting” but rather Righteous Justice.

Bryan Hodge, thank you for your input, very well said! Also, couldn’t agree more about knowing things: Deut 29.

The Lord Be Glorified!
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 1:38 PM

Bryan -

Of course I do realize that I can understand much of God’s revelation even though I can’t understand all of it (yet). The thing about revelation is that it is gradual, not in God’s timeline but certainly in mine.

I understand much more today than I did as a brand new Christian high school student (and I refuse to tell you how many years have passed between then and now). Some things I doggedly thought were black, I understand now to be white. Much of what I understood as black or white I now understand as grey. That is how I see the glass darkly works.

Of course, the rest of that fine expose’ by the Apostle Paul is that love trumps everything (my brutal one three word paraphrase). I love remembering that, although we can apply his words to all our relationships, the context in which they were written involved relationship within the church. THAT is the lesson I need the most.

Wendi
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 2:07 PM

Brian & BeHim, I wanted to thank you for explaining this to me. Now I understand what it means. Thank you for your patiences and teaching me.

Sad thing is alot of churches are not using this scripture at all and that is sad. Now I know why the church has two black eyes and no one wants to go. No discipline…

Correct me if I am wrong fellas, but couldn’t you use that verse that says “God is not the author of confusion.” Am I learning now.
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 7:19 PM

I am all for contemporary methods. But not to pray and invoke God’s blessings is a serious problem. We must remember that we serve a holy God. Secondly where does the Bible teach that if your not materially blessed your unspiritual? That has to go. Remember that Jesus was born in a manger, had no place to lay his head, and died a criminal death.
Posted by

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 7:25 PM

Brian thank you for the wisdom in the word. And your point has been well recieved.I hope mine was also.Alot of you guys and gals are sharp as a tack.Please stay that way and keep it the true word no matter who likes it . Thanks agian John Mac
Posted by Brian La Croix

Thursday, December 08, 2005 at 8:16 PM

John Mac -

Your point was, indeed, well received.

Be blessed, bro.

Brian
Posted by

Saturday, December 10, 2005 at 11:04 PM

John Mac,

YOU are right on target...this is the simple truth...JESUS...nothing more, nothing
less...all in all. We have gone to entertaining, worrying about numbers, etc.
They followed Him from hillside to hillside
and the crowds grew daily. Go guy, go!!
Posted by

Monday, December 12, 2005 at 12:45 PM

I agree with many of the bloggers who stated that we need to be more concerned about “being” the church rather than “doing” church. If you look at Acts 2 you will see God’s indent for how the church should function. I think we need to find ways to have our church reflect the “Acts 2” mantality of service, community, love, and concern for the lost. We need to build a biblically authentic community of believers that is concerned more about being Christ’s representatives rather than what they “can get out of doing church”. I think many churches have created an atmosphere that is more like a social club for Christians. Lost is dying to self, suffering for Christ’s sake, and caring for the needs of others. I know that I am as guilty as any other American on this, but I think the Church needs to look for ways to fix this cancer that is choking out the work of the Holy Spirit.

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Hi... I'm Todd Rhoades. I'm a Christ-follower, husband, father and I love to connect leaders with other leaders. Hopefully you'll find something here at MMI you like and will return often. If you want, you can find out more about me or follow my every step on Twitter.