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Martin Luther:  “Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?”

Orginally published on Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 8:22 AM
by Todd Rhoades

Mars Hill Church and Mark Driscoll have recently published a position paper on 'alcohol' usage. It includes quotes from Martin Luther and Homer Simpson... but really, is a well-thought out thesis on how they interpret the Bible verses related to alcohol. You might or might not agree; but at least they have taken the time to think through this issue and search the scriptures to come up with their basis of thinking. That's somewhat refreshing these days...

One of the more controversial issues related to Mars Hill Church concerns alcohol. The following is a summary of our position on the matter adapted from Pastor Mark Driscoll’s book The Radical Reformission: Reaching Out Without Selling Out.

“Do you suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused? Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?”
– Martin Luther

“Mmmm . . . beer.” - Homer Simpson

Historically, God’s people have greatly enjoyed alcohol. In the European world one of the most Christian drinks was beer. Saint Gall was a missionary to the Celts and renowned brewer. After Charlemagne’s reign the church because Europe’s exclusive brewer. When a young woman was to marry her church made special bridal ale for her, from which we derive our word bridal. Pastor John Calvin’s annual salary package included upwards of 250 gallons of wine to be enjoyed by he and his guests. Martin Luther explained the entire reformation as “…while I sat still and drank beer with Philip and Amsdorf, God dealt the papacy a mighty blow.” Luther’s wife Catherine was a skilled brewer and his love letters to her when they were apart lamented his inability to drink her beer. When the Puritan’s landed on Plymouth Rock the first permanent building they erected was the brewery.

As feminism grew in America during the turn of the 20th century the women’s suffrage and prohibition movements were the practical results of a feminine piety that came to also dominate the church as more women became pastors and the church became more feminine. Some denominations began to condemn alcohol as sinful and the Methodist pastor Dr. Thomas Welch created the very “Christian” Welch’s grape juice to replace communion wine in 1869. The marriage of Christianity and feminism helped to create a dry nation that put out of business all but the largest brewers who were able to survive on near beer and root beer which explains why today American beer is largely mass produced, watered down, light on calories, and feminine in comparison to rich and dark European beers. The resurgence of micro-brews is helping to overcome the great loss and resurrect the art of brewing.

Lastly, some Christians foolishly argue that such terms as new wine and mixed wine in the Bible speak of non-alcoholic wine. But, new wine can still intoxicate according to Scripture (Isaiah 24:7; Hosea 4:11; Joel 1:5), and mixed wine refers to special wines where various wines are mixed together and/or mixed with spices and does not refer to wine cut with water (Psalm 75:8; Song of Songs 8:2). God refers to pouring out the wine of His mixed wine on His enemies which does not mean He will dilute justice (Psalm 75:8). The only time such a practice is mentioned in the Bible is in regards to merchants who cut wine with to rob customers (Isaiah 1:22). The Bible speaks of grape juice (Numbers 6:3) and if God meant to speak of non-alcoholic wine he would have used that word to avoid confusion.

Read the rest of their statement here...


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  There are 65 Comments:

  • Posted by

    Pastor Al, I can’t honestly speak for Driscoll (who can???), but I know that my personal stance that it is okay to drink alcohol really has nothing to do with a desire to be relevant.  It is just an honest conclusion that I come to from reading Scripture.  I know others come to a different, albeit just as honest conclusion, but I’m not sure that “relevance” plays into the decision-making process much at all.  The statistics you cited are certainly scary and noteworthy; however, most of the alcohol-related tragedies come from the OVER consumption of alcohol, not its use in moderation.  I think rather than making its use strictly forbidden, there would be more benefit in the church showing what responsible enjoyment of alcohol looks like.

  • Posted by

    Nora,

    Please check out this website for what the “Moderate” uses of Alcohol does to one’s life.

    http://www.stopaddiction.com/narconon_alcohol_moderation.html#

    Ok that said.  Let’s leave the issue of Alcohol consumption aside for just a moment.  Do you think our bibles would make an issue of supporting companies that tell you young daughters that the way to be “cool” and have “enjoyment with Alcohol” is to wrestle in mud, or dress in a way that makes you an object of lust?  Or how about the message to our boys that to be cool, means you ogle girls, drink like a fish and party with no regard to any moral standards at all.  To me it is too high a price to pay for a refreshing drink of beer. 

    It is amazing how we can simply ignore 50,00+ deaths a year related to alcohol consumption, in favor of moderation!  Our “church” has become so relevant it is bordering on irrelevancy!
    When you have counseled as many people as I have and can trace most of their problems back to their “Moderate” drinking… then you might have a different perspective on what real “enjoyment” is all about. 
    PA

  • Posted by Bart

    Pastor Al, First let me say that I appreciate your conviction.  I too do not drink for the reasons you listed, it just is to risky for me.  But te website you listed doesn’t really talk about moderate use, but abuse.  I can not say that the Bible prohibits alcohol use, but it does warm about its abuse.  It does however tell me that gluttony is a sin, and we do not see the church preaching about the evils of trans fats at McDonalds, and that it is a sin to be 10 pounds overweight.  As far as supporting industry that sends the wrong message, every car advertisment tells me that to be cool, catch the girl, or show my wealth and position I must drive a certain car.  I do not agree with their ads, but I still drive one.  The alcohol industry and it’s abuse have dramatically altered our society, and not for the better.  While I do not drink, and encourage others not to, the Bible does not call it a sin or prohibit alcohol use.  I believe that the church has a responsibility to teach about the risks of alcohol and suggest abstinance, but not require it.

  • Posted by

    Pastor Al, I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but what it sounds like you’re saying is that there is no way a person can drink alcohol in moderation and not become an addict.  And yet there are many examples, Biblical and personal, that we can point to that say that that is not the case.  Can drinking lead to problems of many sorts?  Certainly!  Can it also be something that, when used in moderation, is enjoyable and, yes, can have many health benefits? Certainly!  The church can and should educate and inform about the dangers of alcohol addiction, but for a church to forbid its use is adding to Scripture something that is just not there.

  • Posted by

    Nora,

    I don’t think you will find in any of my responses that I said the church should “forbid” alcohol.  But then again I wouldn’t promote it either… too many down sides to drinking.  As to the “healthy” benefits, well my grandmother lived to the ripe old age of 94 and never took a drink in her life.  And you know what, she still enjoyed life!  Amazing isn’t it, she didn’t need alcohol to love her children or grandchildren more, she didn’t’ t need alcohol to understand God more, she didn’t need alcohol to be happy, she didn’t need alcohol to give her life purpose and she didn’t need alcohol to “relax!”

    So, if you would like to support an industry that fights against the godly life scriptures call the children of God to, then I am at a loss for words!  Which is pretty hard for me to get too? grin

    Peace,
    PA

  • Posted by

    Well, thanks, Pastor Al, for the clarification on forbidding alcohol, though I’m still a little confused.  You say that you wouldn’t forbid it, but then you say, “So, if you would like to support an industry that fights against the godly life scriptures call the children of God to, then I am at a loss for words!  Which is pretty hard for me to get too?” Since obviously any consumption of alcohol supports this, in your words, ungodly industry, it certainly sounds like your implication is to forbid any alcohol use.  Unless of course, you’re recommending that we start making it ourselves!  Hey, there’s a thought—church-sponsored wine making classes! smile Well, I’ll drop it here, Pastor Al.  Thanks for the interesting debate.

    Nora

  • Posted by

    Brian,

    What message are we sending out here, by saying in church “well the Bible doesn’t speak against drinking” without bringing in the context of scripture?  Are we living in a time when the water we drink is contaminated?  Are we living in a time when a “little” wine actually did cure many ailments?  Are we living in a time that didn’t’ see 55,000+ deaths a year related to alcohol consumption?

    Come on my friend, to use scripture to support modern day drinking habits is like using the bible to support polygamy in some parts of Idaho!  grin

    You know my friends; don’t discount what I am saying here because I have some passion about this issue.  It isn’t coming out of a legalism or an attempt to “limit everyone’s fun.” It comes out of 25 years of ministering to people whose lives have been ruined by this stuff!  Believe me they all started out using alcohol with “moderation.” They all said, “Well God doesn’t prevent it!” They all rationalized away the still small voice of the Holy Spirit who said, “Don’t go down this road, and avoid it at all cost.” They all thought they were “stronger” or “able to hold their liquor.” Would we tell a person to “moderately” have extramarital sex?  Would we tell a person to moderately steal from their company?  No, because we all know the effects of such decisions.  My heart burns for those around me caught in the web of this snare of Satan, and it angers me to see a “church” promote it even so gently as Mars has done.  Believe me, people are not hearing “Drink in moderation,” people are hearing “Mars Church says it’s ok to drink!  Well then the next round is on me!”

    And what Mars church will never hear is the voice of the little boy or girl at home who asks their mom as she is tucking them into bed, “Mommy where’s daddy?” And what is mom’s response; let’s hope it isn’t “Well he stopped off at “Sammy’s Pub” for a drink with Pastor Mark.”

    Peace,
    PA

  • Posted by kent

    pastor al,

    I understand your position, it is difficult, if not impossible to be dispassionate about something that has almost cost you your loved one. There is no neutrality there. The points you raise concerning the cost of alcohol on the life and economy of our nation are valid. You cannot make your case biblically without taking texts which can point to many of things we do that have self-destructive elements to them. i.e. eating.

    A large part of the post was the numerous biblical references to the use and integration of alcohol into the daily life in the Bible and the church. Like Bart, I do not drink for a multitude of reason, cost and taste are two of them, but my church has as number of people who do drink responsibly, and they are ardent followers of Jesus. This also seems to be an Amercian issue, because in Europe, as those who are believers they do not even see this as an issue.

    One last thing. I am a republican who is adamently for gun control. I do not want my neighbors armed, we have too many guns wandering our culture as it is. But I cannot make the case biblically for that. (I do not want this get into a gun debate.) I am be passionate, but I cannot make the case biblically.

  • Posted by Leonard

    So Driscoll says that people should not get drunk, follow the scriptures where alcohol is concerned, take into account the past of others and the struggles of others so as to not cause them to sin and in doing so he takes the middle of the road.  Al, I get the devastating impact of alcohol and addiction in our culture from both a pastoral and a deeply personal point of view.  I also understand the thinking concerning buying from companies whose message is “be cool” and then define cool as sexually active or even sexually perverted.  But Driscoll did not support that in his post.  I do not remember him saying, “buy from Coors, their commercials are the best, just don’t get drunk.  Your quoted stats are the very reason we should follow scriptures command not to become intoxicated, not to be addicted and not to forget our brother in our consumption of anything that might be harmful. 

    You are introducing here a thread to the discussion that would be healthy to discuss.  The issues you bring up about the marketing you are commenting upon and the messages you identify as accompanying these products can be placed at the feet of Cars, Doritos, soft drinks and a host of other items we buy everyday. 

    My question to you is did do you think Driscoll handle the scriptures accurately concerning the bibles teaching on alcohol? If not, what did he miss?  What in your opinion do you think the bible teaches us, not about the marketing or the companies that sell alcohol, but the consumption of alcohol?

    Finally, a caution respectfully given.  You are coming across as attacking in your tone.  The problem with words is we cannot tell how hard you hit the keys when you type, so your passion feels harsh, even angry on people who disagree.  .

  • Posted by

    Pastor Al,

    Call me curious here… I’m wondering if you would ever physically walk into a bar if you knowingly knew that one of your church members who had issues with alcohol was inside drinking? Say it was someone you counseled before personally.

    And also… I’m sorry you and your wife had such a traumatic experience. Yet, I am also thankful for it. Why? Would you have the same passion had you not gone through such an ordeal?

    Thanks, Al.

    Note: I personally do not drink. While there is no doubt that I do enjoy the taste of wine, I simply cannot do so. I never know when my phone might ring with someone needing help. How can I offer to pick people up or be of whatever assistance they might need if I myself have had a drink or two?

  • Posted by Randy Ehle

    Pastor Al, I certainly understand your hard-line stance on alcohol in light of the tragic episode you mentioned.  In your first comment you provided a truly staggering list of issues resulting from the abuse of alcohol.  Based on those issues, you seem to have drawn the conclusion that alcohol is to be avoided. 

    The thing is, the Bible does not condemn the use of alcohol, but rather its abuse.  I don’t believe anyone here (or at Mars Hill) would condone the abuse of alcohol.  Neither should we condone the abuse of regulations concerning its use.  I have appreciated several of the commenters here who have balanced their understanding of what the Bible says about alcohol with a well-thought-out “practical” decision related to its use.  I trust that those who allow themselves a measure of freedom with alcohol would, out of love for a brother or sister, refrain from exercising that freedom if it would cause that brother or sister a stumbling block.

    I find Mars Hill’s stated position very well-defended from a biblical standpoint, while leaving unaddressed the problems you have stated.  They certainly could have gone further in their position by including such warnings against abuse, and that may not be a bad idea, but they have certainly addressed it biblically, and for that should be commended.

  • Posted by

    Leonard,
    Fear Not!  I have not abused my keyboard in writing these responses! smile

    Camey,
    Yes I have been in plenty of bars!  Does that make me part of the “cool relevant crowd” cuz I was hoping to, hoping upon a star. smile
    Randy,
    Very reasonable answers, I will try them next time I am visiting a family whose son just died “moderately drinking and driving.” :(

    Well, that about raps up my thoughts about this topic – hope I have at least sparked someone to think, “You know that “angry” guy who posted today really got me thinking that my moderate approach might be doing more harm than help.”

    Peace, and please Don’t Drink and Drive – even “moderately.”
    PA

  • Posted by

    Wow. Glad I got into this one, if a little late.

    I’ve known FAR more people who drink moderately and who do NOT experience any bad effects on their lives as a result than people who drink to excess and ruin their lives. It is a careful thing (a little like food offered to idols… be VERY careful who you do what you do with...) that we must treat with delicacy.

    btw, I’ve spoken with NUMEROUS cardiologists (men at the top of their field) about the whole health “benefit” to moderate consumption of alcohol. They were unanimous in their support of it privately, but very careful about how they went on the record. Some will specifically prescribe a glass of wine with dinner every night to their patients!

    And about Mark’s remarks in his notorious paragraph on the connection with the “feminization” of the church, I’ve heard some strong reactions against it… but I’m not so sure that the history doesn’t back him up…

  • Posted by

    It has been my observation that becoming overly dogmatic about a cause eventually does more harm for the cause than good. That might not be the case here...I certainly hope not.

    Alcohol abuse is a cause worthy of fighting the good fight and I applaud those that take up the cause. My father was an alcoholic and I watched that addiction literally destroy all his relationships and eventually, take his life. I know statistically, I may have a higher propensity for alcoholism myself, so I’m extremely diligent.

  • Posted by

    btw… I gave up beer and wine for lent… (I don’t do anything harder...) Yeah. I still do that. Haven’t been a catholic for decades, but I still do that…

    Anybody else do something wacky like that. (I also gave up chocolate… and let me tell you, I can live without beer and wine no problem… but this chocolate thing is KILLING me!)

  • Posted by

    Pastor Al,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond. That doesn’t make you cool in my eyes....It makes you RAD! as in R-A-D-I-C-A-L

    R = Ready
    A = Available
    D= Daring
    I = Intentional
    C = Caring
    A = Authenic
    L = Living

    Peter: You’re such a woman! wink

  • Posted by

    Peter,

    That’s even better!  Thanks smile

    Al

  • Posted by RevJeff

    AWWWWW Group HUG!

  • Posted by

    Great Debate. I don’t care for Mark Driscoll at all. I think he is pretty much an arrogant jerk. Having said that… He is right about the the church being feminine. 

    The thing I do like about him is that he provokes some really great dialogue and challenges some sacred cows.  Men I talk to see the church as sissified.  We talk about surrender, love, kindness, etc. We sing songs that are mushy, gushy, emotional, peanut butter, gooey yucky Mr. Rogers “I want to be your neighbor” wimpy songs.

    Men don’t feel normal in that type of environment. Men are wired differently than that. With the exception of those who have been feminized that is.

    BTW: I like Mr. Rogers, even if he was a wuss.

  • Posted by

    Yes Leonard, we are indeed on the same side, and that our appreciation and respect mutual.  Plus, I think my response to your “err” statement and yours back to me shows that we’re saying the same thing with different semantics.  A biblically informed conscience is the standard.

    Yes, MD did begin with a quote from Luther, but Luther’s statement was completely different from the comments by MD.  Luther said:

    “Do you suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused? Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?”

    Luther in no way implies that the women the cause of the abuse, but rather are (or could be) victims of abuse by men.

    Even if there is historical support for MD’s comments, he on the other hand paints women themselves and their influence on the church and society as the cause of the problem (businesses closed down, we got bad beer in the US). 

    To the history lesson by MD I say “so what??” What does the women’s temperance movement in America have to do with how I should live and respond to what scripture teaches me about alcohol use and abuse? 

    You see, MD baits us (some of us).  He makes comments (once again) that imply our “feminine” influence is the cause of yet another problem in the church and society, and weak volatile women like me take the bait, get our hackles up.

    Randy expresses my feelings better than I did. 

    [As for the links to feminism, I’m just not sure how helpful that is to the position paper.  If it’s accurate - and I don’t know one way or the other - it is interesting history, but the biblical perspective is certainly far more compelling.]

    Mark . . . you make a very compelling biblical case for prudence, moderation and subordinating our freedom to our responsibility to serve others and live out the gospel.  Why must you compromise such an approproiate and biblically sound message by interjecting comments that you KNOW will rile people up and are COMPLETELY unnecessary to the point you are trying to make?

    Wendi

  • Posted by

    As a pastor myself I read MMI with one eyebrow raised on half the things that Todd posts, thats just the way I am wired. So, today when I read about Agendas and people that have them in your church I instantly thought of Pastor Al’s posts on this thread regarding alcohol. Does Al believe that all of these statistics about alcohol related deaths are new? Did alcoholism begin in the U.S.??? Jesus and the apostle Paul both drank, Jesus turned water into wine, real wine. The facts are that the Bible never forbids drinking, if it did then Jesus would not have turned that water into wine. When Jesus drank there were countless thousands of drunks in existence in the world....Just like today. Al, I truly believe that what you pushing is straight up legalism and what Mark Driscoll is pushing is Biblical exegesis. Don’t get me wrong, I am no apologist for mark Driscoll but we have to be careful that we do not make ourselves out to be more righteous than our perfect Lord who gave wine to his disciples.

    I see cars killing people and guns killing people...Yet they don’t kill people if you use them responsibly. The Bible says the same thing...I think that it is “cool” to rightly divide scripture...Al, all you have done is quote statistics. I will stick with God’s inerrant Word. It seems righteous to prohibit people from doing certain things but if we were to take Al’s admonition seriously then Paul was totally irresponsible to tell Timothy to take some wine for His stomachs sake...Paul would have stumbled millions by allowing wine to touch his disciples lips. We have to be careful that we dont slam guys like Driscoll as being too “cool” when we ourselves are coming off as Pharisees. Al, I think that you have an agenda.

  • Posted by

    Way to go Peter. Chocolate may be hard but coffee was the absolute worse, along with carbs one year.  I think the fast does not state a spiritual maturity but reveals my physical fraility. The information about alcohol is great. I am speaking about the bread and wine at the end of the month. We clearly have a hang-up with the wine part, while a majority of Christians around the world remember Christ with a swallow of wine. I understand the debate about the abuse of alcohol.

    The hard part of dealing with a topic such as alcohol is that when something is said that may be historically true, it is very sensitive to many readers as our blog has shown.

  • Posted by Leonard

    Wendi,
    Thanks for coming back into the mix.  I realize that the subject of women and honoring them is a huge issue.  I also know Driscoll is on pretty thin ice with many a member of the opposite sex.  As for my own dense way of seeing things.  I did not see his comments in the same light you did.  I will however after going back and reading them, taking into account who wrote them say I can see why they bother you. 

    When I read them here is what I “heard” in them.  There was a temperance movement in this country led by women.  It was the byproduct of feminism not just in this country but throughout Europe too.  Feminism sprung from the abolitionist movement in which women had such an instrumental part.  (My wife’s great x’s 4 over was one of the pioneers of the Underground Railroad.) Christianity has long been a champion of the rights of the oppressed and feminism and Christianity were partners in the Temperance movement.  The impact upon the temperance movement was huge and afterward there was also an increase in pastors who were women.  I did not see the blame placed at the feet of women for ruining beer in this country.  I actually read it as information not insinuation.  This could be entirely because I am not as sensitive to the issues as I should be, if so I’ll own that.  Suffice it to say, I missed the insinuation that frustrated you and some others. 

    Driscoll has earned the reputation as a guy whose opinion’s about women in the church cause friction.  My earlier response to you did not address this as I wanted to respect the thread and not shift it from the subject.  Should Christians Drink alcohol.  I also wanted to at least form a response that was not pacifying to you and thus disrespectful to an issue you have been hurt by.

  • Posted by

    Hey Pastor Hal,

    Why don’t you open both eyes next time you read MMI, at least my posts.  You’ll notice I did not call for the abolition of Alcohol in any of my posts, did I speak against the evil that this stuff does, you better believe it.  Did I suggest we pass a law forbidding it, NO.  Yet you must have missed that, with that one eyebrow up?

    The extreme callousness you seem to have with those “statistics” which I might add, represent individuals for whom Christ died, is extremely in poor taste.  One thing you are right about… I do have an agenda so, if I am taken off you Christmas card list next year for loving people enough to warn them about the dangers of alcohol, then so be it.

    Blessings,
    PA

  • Posted by Leonard

    Pastor Al,
    Did Driscoll handle the scriptures wrong in your opinion?  You still have not addressed that in your posts.

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