Pastor Al, I can’t honestly speak for Driscoll (who can???), but I know that my personal stance that it is okay to drink alcohol really has nothing to do with a desire to be relevant.  It is just an honest conclusion that I come to from reading Scripture.  I know others come to a different, albeit just as honest conclusion, but I’m not sure that “relevance” plays into the decision-making process much at all.  The statistics you cited are certainly scary and noteworthy; however, most of the alcohol-related tragedies come from the OVER consumption of alcohol, not its use in moderation.  I think rather than making its use strictly forbidden, there would be more benefit in the church showing what responsible enjoyment of alcohol looks like.

Pastor Al, First let me say that I appreciate your conviction.  I too do not drink for the reasons you listed, it just is to risky for me.  But te website you listed doesn’t really talk about moderate use, but abuse.  I can not say that the Bible prohibits alcohol use, but it does warm about its abuse.  It does however tell me that gluttony is a sin, and we do not see the church preaching about the evils of trans fats at McDonalds, and that it is a sin to be 10 pounds overweight.  As far as supporting industry that sends the wrong message, every car advertisment tells me that to be cool, catch the girl, or show my wealth and position I must drive a certain car.  I do not agree with their ads, but I still drive one.  The alcohol industry and it’s abuse have dramatically altered our society, and not for the better.  While I do not drink, and encourage others not to, the Bible does not call it a sin or prohibit alcohol use.  I believe that the church has a responsibility to teach about the risks of alcohol and suggest abstinance, but not require it.

Nora,

I don’t think you will find in any of my responses that I said the church should “forbid” alcohol.  But then again I wouldn’t promote it either… too many down sides to drinking.  As to the “healthy” benefits, well my grandmother lived to the ripe old age of 94 and never took a drink in her life.  And you know what, she still enjoyed life!  Amazing isn’t it, she didn’t need alcohol to love her children or grandchildren more, she didn’t’ t need alcohol to understand God more, she didn’t need alcohol to be happy, she didn’t need alcohol to give her life purpose and she didn’t need alcohol to “relax!”

So, if you would like to support an industry that fights against the godly life scriptures call the children of God to, then I am at a loss for words!  Which is pretty hard for me to get too?

Peace,
PA

Brian,

What message are we sending out here, by saying in church “well the Bible doesn’t speak against drinking” without bringing in the context of scripture?  Are we living in a time when the water we drink is contaminated?  Are we living in a time when a “little” wine actually did cure many ailments?  Are we living in a time that didn’t’ see 55,000+ deaths a year related to alcohol consumption?

Come on my friend, to use scripture to support modern day drinking habits is like using the bible to support polygamy in some parts of Idaho! 

You know my friends; don’t discount what I am saying here because I have some passion about this issue.  It isn’t coming out of a legalism or an attempt to “limit everyone’s fun.” It comes out of 25 years of ministering to people whose lives have been ruined by this stuff!  Believe me they all started out using alcohol with “moderation.” They all said, “Well God doesn’t prevent it!” They all rationalized away the still small voice of the Holy Spirit who said, “Don’t go down this road, and avoid it at all cost.” They all thought they were “stronger” or “able to hold their liquor.” Would we tell a person to “moderately” have extramarital sex?  Would we tell a person to moderately steal from their company?  No, because we all know the effects of such decisions.  My heart burns for those around me caught in the web of this snare of Satan, and it angers me to see a “church” promote it even so gently as Mars has done.  Believe me, people are not hearing “Drink in moderation,” people are hearing “Mars Church says it’s ok to drink!  Well then the next round is on me!”

And what Mars church will never hear is the voice of the little boy or girl at home who asks their mom as she is tucking them into bed, “Mommy where’s daddy?” And what is mom’s response; let’s hope it isn’t “Well he stopped off at “Sammy’s Pub” for a drink with Pastor Mark.”

Peace,
PA

So Driscoll says that people should not get drunk, follow the scriptures where alcohol is concerned, take into account the past of others and the struggles of others so as to not cause them to sin and in doing so he takes the middle of the road.  Al, I get the devastating impact of alcohol and addiction in our culture from both a pastoral and a deeply personal point of view.  I also understand the thinking concerning buying from companies whose message is “be cool” and then define cool as sexually active or even sexually perverted.  But Driscoll did not support that in his post.  I do not remember him saying, “buy from Coors, their commercials are the best, just don’t get drunk.  Your quoted stats are the very reason we should follow scriptures command not to become intoxicated, not to be addicted and not to forget our brother in our consumption of anything that might be harmful. 

You are introducing here a thread to the discussion that would be healthy to discuss.  The issues you bring up about the marketing you are commenting upon and the messages you identify as accompanying these products can be placed at the feet of Cars, Doritos, soft drinks and a host of other items we buy everyday. 

My question to you is did do you think Driscoll handle the scriptures accurately concerning the bibles teaching on alcohol? If not, what did he miss?  What in your opinion do you think the bible teaches us, not about the marketing or the companies that sell alcohol, but the consumption of alcohol?

Finally, a caution respectfully given.  You are coming across as attacking in your tone.  The problem with words is we cannot tell how hard you hit the keys when you type, so your passion feels harsh, even angry on people who disagree.  .

Pastor Al, I certainly understand your hard-line stance on alcohol in light of the tragic episode you mentioned.  In your first comment you provided a truly staggering list of issues resulting from the abuse of alcohol.  Based on those issues, you seem to have drawn the conclusion that alcohol is to be avoided. 

The thing is, the Bible does not condemn the use of alcohol, but rather its abuse.  I don’t believe anyone here (or at Mars Hill) would condone the abuse of alcohol.  Neither should we condone the abuse of regulations concerning its use.  I have appreciated several of the commenters here who have balanced their understanding of what the Bible says about alcohol with a well-thought-out “practical” decision related to its use.  I trust that those who allow themselves a measure of freedom with alcohol would, out of love for a brother or sister, refrain from exercising that freedom if it would cause that brother or sister a stumbling block.

I find Mars Hill’s stated position very well-defended from a biblical standpoint, while leaving unaddressed the problems you have stated.  They certainly could have gone further in their position by including such warnings against abuse, and that may not be a bad idea, but they have certainly addressed it biblically, and for that should be commended.

Wow. Glad I got into this one, if a little late.

I’ve known FAR more people who drink moderately and who do NOT experience any bad effects on their lives as a result than people who drink to excess and ruin their lives. It is a careful thing (a little like food offered to idols… be VERY careful who you do what you do with...) that we must treat with delicacy.

btw, I’ve spoken with NUMEROUS cardiologists (men at the top of their field) about the whole health “benefit” to moderate consumption of alcohol. They were unanimous in their support of it privately, but very careful about how they went on the record. Some will specifically prescribe a glass of wine with dinner every night to their patients!

And about Mark’s remarks in his notorious paragraph on the connection with the “feminization” of the church, I’ve heard some strong reactions against it… but I’m not so sure that the history doesn’t back him up…

btw… I gave up beer and wine for lent… (I don’t do anything harder...) Yeah. I still do that. Haven’t been a catholic for decades, but I still do that…

Anybody else do something wacky like that. (I also gave up chocolate… and let me tell you, I can live without beer and wine no problem… but this chocolate thing is KILLING me!)

Peter,

That’s even better!  Thanks

Al

Great Debate. I don’t care for Mark Driscoll at all. I think he is pretty much an arrogant jerk. Having said that… He is right about the the church being feminine. 

The thing I do like about him is that he provokes some really great dialogue and challenges some sacred cows.  Men I talk to see the church as sissified.  We talk about surrender, love, kindness, etc. We sing songs that are mushy, gushy, emotional, peanut butter, gooey yucky Mr. Rogers “I want to be your neighbor” wimpy songs.

Men don’t feel normal in that type of environment. Men are wired differently than that. With the exception of those who have been feminized that is.

BTW: I like Mr. Rogers, even if he was a wuss.

As a pastor myself I read MMI with one eyebrow raised on half the things that Todd posts, thats just the way I am wired. So, today when I read about Agendas and people that have them in your church I instantly thought of Pastor Al’s posts on this thread regarding alcohol. Does Al believe that all of these statistics about alcohol related deaths are new? Did alcoholism begin in the U.S.??? Jesus and the apostle Paul both drank, Jesus turned water into wine, real wine. The facts are that the Bible never forbids drinking, if it did then Jesus would not have turned that water into wine. When Jesus drank there were countless thousands of drunks in existence in the world....Just like today. Al, I truly believe that what you pushing is straight up legalism and what Mark Driscoll is pushing is Biblical exegesis. Don’t get me wrong, I am no apologist for mark Driscoll but we have to be careful that we do not make ourselves out to be more righteous than our perfect Lord who gave wine to his disciples.

I see cars killing people and guns killing people...Yet they don’t kill people if you use them responsibly. The Bible says the same thing...I think that it is “cool” to rightly divide scripture...Al, all you have done is quote statistics. I will stick with God’s inerrant Word. It seems righteous to prohibit people from doing certain things but if we were to take Al’s admonition seriously then Paul was totally irresponsible to tell Timothy to take some wine for His stomachs sake...Paul would have stumbled millions by allowing wine to touch his disciples lips. We have to be careful that we dont slam guys like Driscoll as being too “cool” when we ourselves are coming off as Pharisees. Al, I think that you have an agenda.

Wendi,
Thanks for coming back into the mix.  I realize that the subject of women and honoring them is a huge issue.  I also know Driscoll is on pretty thin ice with many a member of the opposite sex.  As for my own dense way of seeing things.  I did not see his comments in the same light you did.  I will however after going back and reading them, taking into account who wrote them say I can see why they bother you. 

When I read them here is what I “heard” in them.  There was a temperance movement in this country led by women.  It was the byproduct of feminism not just in this country but throughout Europe too.  Feminism sprung from the abolitionist movement in which women had such an instrumental part.  (My wife’s great x’s 4 over was one of the pioneers of the Underground Railroad.) Christianity has long been a champion of the rights of the oppressed and feminism and Christianity were partners in the Temperance movement.  The impact upon the temperance movement was huge and afterward there was also an increase in pastors who were women.  I did not see the blame placed at the feet of women for ruining beer in this country.  I actually read it as information not insinuation.  This could be entirely because I am not as sensitive to the issues as I should be, if so I’ll own that.  Suffice it to say, I missed the insinuation that frustrated you and some others. 

Driscoll has earned the reputation as a guy whose opinion’s about women in the church cause friction.  My earlier response to you did not address this as I wanted to respect the thread and not shift it from the subject.  Should Christians Drink alcohol.  I also wanted to at least form a response that was not pacifying to you and thus disrespectful to an issue you have been hurt by.

Pastor Al,
Did Driscoll handle the scriptures wrong in your opinion?  You still have not addressed that in your posts.