Leonard,

Mark Driscoll would do well to hire you as his ghost writer.  Your history lesson is probably just as accurate as his, but yours isn’t the slightest bit offensive.

Thank you so much for your willingness to re-read the post, attempting to view it through my lenses (and others who had a similar reaction).  THAT . . . is exactly the kind of selflessness and forbearance which MD lacks.

I know Todd intended this be a thread about whether Christians should drink alcohol, and I respect your desire not to hijack the thread.  However, IMO Driscoll himself used the position paper about alcohol consumption as another platform to communicate his distain (yep, that’s what I think) for women, which I felt made comments about that fair.

And you’re right, over the years I have been hurt by the way some in ministry have handled the women in leadership issue.  However, it’s never been by people who treat these theological differences with the kind of respect and fairness I always sense from you and most of the regular posters here on MMI.

Pastor Al – I too would like to hear your thoughts about MD’s treatment of the scriptures on this issue, without commentary about history or statistics, even trying to filter out the influence of personal pain or biases that form your (and my) presuppositions.

Wendi

EASY, everybody. Al brings balance to this discussion.

It is pointless to discuss alcohol without including a discussion of its destructive power, something that is self-evident in both statistics and biblical admonitions. And Cal, Driscoll may be attempting to stick with a balance such as you say, but he adds in a skewed description of history.

Pastor Cal and friends,

Use to see alcohol the same way you did, until well my wife and I were nearly killed by a drunk driver.  You indicated I have a “problem” with alcohol, not drinking it as you implied, but yes when it comes to the damaging effects of it – I never pretended to be neutral on this subject, in fact if you read my post you would have seen I make that point very clear.  When something happens in our lives that change us forever, it is hard to get over that, but I was fair in saying where I was coming from.  I notice you didn’t argue with the facts I gave, you just called me legalistic, which is a poor attempt to shut me up, thinking that would shame me back into a corner.  Sorry, that’s not my style. 

But then you continued on with your rant: You say I don’t like “public education” how silly you must look now, I am in public education.  You say I tell people not to go to doctors, hey Jr it was doctors who saved my life.  You say I put burdens on people? Where?  By informing them of the dangers of this drug?  By informing them of how devastating it can be?  I can see that you believe “information” in the hands of people causes them to be burdened?  Wow?  That’s very troubling. 

And finally, all you out there who have said I want to forbid people from drinking, you’re wrong I never said that.  An accurate observation would be to say, “Al is trying to persuade as many as he can to stay clear of this drug of choice for he believe it causes more hurt, damage, pain and destruction than many would like to admit.”

Peace out,
Al

Leonard,

Sorry to be long on getting back to this point, I have been busy defending my honor! .  Driscoll takes a view of scripture that is common for those who want to support this kind of behavior and not very “new.” Now, some of his exegeses he is correct on other points he ignores the historical realities of biblical history.  There are those who stand on the complete opposite of him on this issue and use scripture as well.  So we could all get into a tit for tat answer session that wouldn’t solve much.  That is why I choose to bring out the facts regarding alcohol use in our nation.  For some that might give them pause to consider the ramifications of using this drug.

So, what’s the bottom line that I have to conclude – Scripture does not forbid the drinking of wine, period.  But that isn’t the final issue on the subject, for scripture does not forbid sex, yet it places sex within certain boundaries.  Obviously when Paul instructed Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach, he wasn’t telling him to grab a couple of beers on the way home from work – he was using wine for a medicinal purpose in that case.  But then again I cannot say that Jesus made wine at the wedding for medicinal purposes either, unless the food was bad! Yes, we should not “force” people into a legalistic view about wine, but neither should we forget that our job as ministers is to help people mature in the faith.  To ask themselves simple questions before they participate in this or that, to think: “Is what I am about to do going to further the cause of Christ or give it a black mark?” “While this drink might not send me to hell, is it the kind of example I want to exhibit to my children, that to “relax” I really need a drink?” To me it is a matter of realizing that my actions, my choices to drink will cause ramifications in my life, I have to be honest that will not always mean negative consequences, but from my standpoint it usually turns out bad.

That my heart on the matter, maybe a little less inflammatory, but my heart none the less.

Blessings,
PA

I’m gonna defend Al again. Yes. Wine is a drug! Caffeine is a drug. Chocolate is a drug.

So, yes, Jesus turned water into drugs and served drugs at the last supper… (The alcohol content of that wine was very likely QUITE low from what I understand, btw...)

Sal, I think you’re reading sometihng into Al’s statement. To repeatedly hold up the idea that Wine and Beer are perfectly okay --period-- is to ignore the fact that for a significant portion of the population… they are NOT! I think Al is bringing balance to this discussion. We may not agree on WHO needs to watch what they drink, but I agree whole-heartedly with him that great care must be taken with certain issues of lifestyle, and alcohol is one of them.

Al, I think your last post was very balanced, considering your “agenda:.

Pastor Sal,

I really hope you have a blessed day.

Peace,
Al

Al, I believe that you are a good brother and that your motivation is from a pure heart. I just disagree with your lack of Biblical exegesis. The Bible is authority on all moral subjects. Having said that, I believe that you and I will be in heaven together!

“Okay Al, and everyone whose name rhymes with it… “

Now that is funny… hey is that a chocolate smuge on your face?

Now, don’t get me started on the evils of chocolate!!! 

Next time I am buying the rounds… of M&M;’s that is!

Great talking with you all today,

Al