Bret, having lived through this myself, and having walked through a restoration and redemption process I frankly never bargained for, one thing I can say about former and offended churches in this regard.  One of the tests of a pastor’s repentance is his willingness to submit to whatever that former church suggests as a means of discipline - even if that church didn’t handle it biblically, or in a Christ-centered manner.  It appears Brad was told essentially to stay away, except with an escort (boy, talk about a being a “registered sex offender").  Nevertheless, that was the discipline issued, and he is abiding, whether he agrees with it or not.

While I haven’t read the details of Brad’s blog (yet), this kind of communication process (both blogs in this case and discussion forums in this case) is something akin to taking a few still pictures of somebody over the course of a couple of years.  We’re seeing a few snapshots, while they’re living a movie, with thousands of moving images every day.

That said, Bret, I appreciate the spirit and diligence with which you’re asking the tough questions, and the way you, Brad, are “manning up” to answer them with a spirit of honesty and (I hope) humility.

And Brad, for what it’s worth, even though we’ve never met, if you ever want the encouragement of somebody who’s been there, come out on the other side, and lived to tell about it, feel free to contact me.  (I’ll also be happy to tell you when you’re full of it or feeling sorry for yourself.  All in Christian love, of course. ).  Just click on the blog link here, go to the Tuesday or Wednesday entry for this week, and leave a comment - or hit contact me and zip me an email.

CS- all is fair game.  We are only as sick as our secrets. I am determined to live in truth. Part of that discipline for me is writing. Uncovering. Even “doubting” or “vomiting” out loud. My intent is neither safety nor sanitation.

I have long pondered the “how, what and why” of lives like mine. And now that I’m living a life like mine I wish I could say ta-da, I’ve found the answers. Insead, like you, I find myself often just grunting, “huh?”

So feel free to come grunt.

Brad:

Thanks for your honesty here.  I appreciate that you have made yourself available for questions and comments.

In coming up to speed on things, and please do correct me if I am wrong, it sounds as though you are continuing your relationship with the woman with whom you had an affair.  I realize that, having never been in this situation myself, there is probably a lot more to the story and experience than one could know from being on the outside.  Could you please explain how this describes repentance as far as walking away from sin and striving to change ones mind about it?

Here’s an analogy, as I understand the situation: suppose I have been coveting a new Mustang GT.  Every day I long for having it, dream about being behind the wheel, decorate my walls with images of it, and have an unhealthy obsession with it.  Finally, one day, after coveting it so much, I decide to steal one from a car lot.  I take off with it, and joyride around.

After a day or two, I realize that I have sinned both in coveting and stealing the car.  So, I go back to the lot, apologize, and strike up a bargain with the salesman to finance the car.  So, even though I may have repented of my covetousness and theft, I still keep the car.  Would that be genuine repentance?

If I have overstepped my bounds in asking these questions, please put me in my place.

--
CS

I would again caution, though, that for us who only know Brad from his postings to counsel him is not a great idea. (And Brad, it might not be a great idea for you to invite it from relatively “perfect strangers”.)

I LOVE the Nathan example. We all need our “nathans”, but Nathan knew David personally. Paul opposed Peter who he knew personally… etc…

As far as I’m concerned, if I’m in a situation like Brad’s, for me, it ain’t goin’ on a blog, but I will work with people in my circle here on my restoration.

Bret:

I love ya, man. Honestly.

-Danny Daniels

Peter:

Point well taken on Nathan personally knowing David.

And I agree with your comments that if I were in this situation (only through closeness with His word, prayer and supplication), I would not allow the particulars to enter into the public domain.  But Brad has chosen to do that, which brings me full circle to the question of “why” he has done so and where his heart is.

Thats being said, if Brad requested rather than encouraged questions, I’d shut my trap.

More importantly, I read scripture that tells me it is my obligation to rebuke and to offer reproof.

Maybe someone can justify scripturally the concept that a brother should not rebuke another brother, unless they know him personally.  That would shut me up quick like.  Can I get a witness.

Blessings to all of you and a special prayer of peace for you Brad.

I guess I look at it differently.

First, Scripture doesn’t really speak to the issue of this kind of thing from a distance via the internet, for obvious reasons.

But, common sense tells us that there’s no way we know anything except Brad’s story and there’s no way for us to speak real wisdom into his life. (We have simply not heard other “sides” of this story.)

I stand by my contention that it is very unwise for us to be counsellors for Brad in this situation, and it may be equally unwise for Brad to seek the counsel of we who do not know him at all except through reading his own blog.

I actually don’t need scripture to tell me this as much as good common sense. I’m not condemning anyone, because you’ve all simply engaged in a conversation that Brad has started. I just question the wisdom of it all.

Peter:

Your statement is in direct conflict with scripture, you say:

“I stand by my contention that it is very unwise for us to be counsellors for Brad”

Scripture dictates we are to rebuke and offer reproof with His word.

I am unsure how you justify your common sense versus sound scriptural doctrine. 

CS’s comments are drawing the similarity between Peters public rebuke and the fact that this rebuke is taking on place on the internet and is a proper analogy, thanks CS.

Brian, please justify your position scripturally that the example given of Paul and Peter is “dangerous” .  Especially given the fact that scripture tells us it is our responsibilty to rebuke. 

Again, if Brad says “enough”, I am through...although I still have issues with him posting this whole episode so publicly...I simply fail to see humility in such action.

Peter:

Please, through prayer and supplication, meditate on these words:

Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love

Psalms 141:5 Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.

Proverbs 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Proverbs 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding

Proverbs 19:25 Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge

Proverbs 15:31 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Imagine if all Christians shared your mentality of “It’s ridiculous to think we know enough to be good counsellors” just becasue we dont know him personally. 

How could the gospel be spread, since scripture teaches us that:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness 2 Tim 3:16

If we could only “teach, reproove or correct “people we personally know, how well would we fulfill the great commision?  Pastors could only talk to personal friends, we could only witness to friends, no missions overseas at all, since we dont know them personally. 

Prayerfully and respectfully

Bret

Bret,

I don’t dispute any of those scriptures, I wonder how many of them were written to exhort us to speak into situations where not only did we not have all the facts, but we had only heard one part of the story. I think you’re still not getting me here, it’s not because we don’t know him personally, it’s less than that, we only know a teeny little bit about him, that we read on the web, for goodness sake.

If you think you can wisely speak into this situation based on the information provided in a blog and in comments here, I would not want you counseling me.

And Brad, I’m sorry, brother, but I doubt the wisdom in encouraging us to be your iron sharpening your iron.

I continue to think it unwise. I stand by my statement.

No, Bret, you aren’t feelin’ me.

There’s a difference between preaching the Gospel and counseling someone through something like this over the INTERNET, for goodness sake…

Again, if you can’t see that, with all due respect, I’m glad you’re not my pastor.

Too many pastors jump in with counseling advice too quickly, not having all the facts. This, in cyberspace, is one of those times.

CS and Bret,

My point in pointing out the Peter/Paul thing was to point out the context of Paul’s rebuke.  It was a first-hand witnessing of the action being rebuked.  You do not have this context in dealing with Brad.

It is dangerous because we can cite examples where people did things, but not as examples for us to follow.  For an absurd example, should we go fishing whenever tax time rolls around?  Peter did on one occasion (because Jesus told him to).

When confronted with false prophets, should we challenge them to a “fire from heaven contest” then slaughter them in the valley after they lose?

We have to make sure that the example we’re seeking to emulate fits with the teaching of Scripture.  Paul’s teachings suggest that we confront each other graciously - and rebuke can be done graciously.  See 2 Timothy 2 for some thoughts on that.

We are called to rebuke, as you say.  But I don’t think we are called to be mean and vicious about it as some on this forum are (not addressing you two - you are for the most part gracious in your disagreement).

We are also called to restore our brothers GENTLY (Gal. 6:1).  Mere rebuke doesn’t do that.  So many are good at the rebuking part but lousy at the restoring part.

I have the feeling that Paul regretted his outburst to Peter.  Obviously I don’t know that for a fact, but wouldn’t be surprised at all.

I’m out - got end of the year reports to finish up (yeah, our church year ends in April...) and oh yeah - a sermon for Sunday!

Bret and CS - we’re going to disagree.  I hope that in our disagreement you find grace in my responses.