Oh my!  I don’t read anywhere in the Bible that Jesus separted himself from people.  Jesus ate and drank with sinners.  I thought we were suppose to live like Jesus.

Pete, you have some very penetrating thoughts. Ones that parallel my experience. I was in a growing, vibrant (tended toward legalism, but the Spirit revailed most of the time)church with a firey vision. We lost the present pastor and acquired a new one who foster the “old” ways, however, he was young. The church presently, in my perspective, is dead and dieing. The attenders know it, but the leaders still affirm a “healthy” atmosphere. They have the contemporary music, they even have a new worship leader (who replaced me) who is even more talented than I, with a great heart, wonderful person. BUT! I question how long he will last. How soon will he face the “...get in line”, “stuff your convictions”, no time for “spirit-filled” worship, we need to cut your heart rendering prayers. They really haven’t changed a bit. In fact they went further and further into there own type of legalism and separatist ways. The issues weren’t the music, choir or organ, it was all about the heart. You can put a new coat of paint, slogans, and even a cafe in the mix, but underneath its the same “control” driven leagistic folks running the show.
And really legaism is nothing more than a guise for fear and insecurity of facing a terrifying world armed only with your faith and trust in the Lord and equipped with the gifts of the Spirit. Facing the world with only “faith” scares most legaistic, religious spirit folks to death.

“I don’t hear anyone saying that we shouldn’t use pianos in worship because Liberace was gay.

Or that we shouldn’t wear ties to church because the worldy business community also wear ties to conduct their secular drugery.”

Yes!  I’ve made those very points numerous times.

Why can we play “Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee,” the music of which was written by Beethoven (not a Christian, and not written as a hymn...), but just watch out if Petra or Third Day come to town!

I think many Christians would prefer an album of hymns played by Liberace to a Third Day CD.  Sad, but true.

I’ve also wondered why it’s not okay to dress casually for church, but it’s okay to dress like worldly mob bosses when they order a hit or corrupt Enron executives?

Oh well…

Here’s the question for which I’ve never received a satisfactory answer: what is the Biblical definition of “worldly,” how do you come to it, and how do you apply it consistently?

Brian

Brian,

That’s exactly my point.  Some person is deciding what is worldly and what is not.

It would be one thing if the Bible said that worldly meant ‘electric guitars’ and ‘contemporary music’ or ‘suit and tie’.  But it doesn’t.

Then some men step in and define what worldy is.  And then tell everyone else to subscribe to their standard.  If you don’t meet it, then you’re worldly (translated, unbiblical, unholy, heretic, apostate, heathen).

But they don’t get it:  man is drawing the line; and man is subject to extreme failure more time than not.

Bam.  Legalism.

There has to be balance (that seems to be my mantra the past couple weeks)…

Music is a super example.  What is ‘spiritual music’ according to Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 looks different to me than it does to the writer above. 

Todd

I agree Ben E.

Music may hardly emphasized or even mentioned in the NT but there are many things not listed in the NT that numerous churches preach and insist on in our modern churches. FOr example, some believe wearing jeans is immoral but the NT does not tell us that! Another example, I have never read anywhere in the NT where people cannot have purple hair.... so, what exactly does that mean??

Hello to all my recovering Pharisee Brothers and Sisters,

Yep Todd, I too grew up extremely “Fundie” (We were the ones that put the Fun in Fundamentalist). I was KJV only and all of the rest until I went to Liberty University (it is amazing how much flack I have gotten from my Fundie brethren over that), there I learned how to separate what was social preferences from Biblical standards
It was also at Liberty that I met Danny Lovett who came on staff as I was finishing my undergraduate studies at LU. Let me say that Danny is an acquired taste, and that not everyone warms up to him at the same speed. My wife and I were a little shocked when Ten. Temple called him, but we both assumed that they were looking for him to come be the lightning rod for the changes that they needed to make (I guess that happened).
As to the usual canned response from the ultra-fundie camp, I too understand were they are coming from. I know for myself, that my motivation was never to be a jerk or to have an easy way out of the Christian life, actually to the contrary; I was convinced I needed to “contend for the faith” and to “fight the good fight” “wrestling against, principalities and powers, against spiritual darkness in high places”. In other words I was a Pharisee who was scared to death that if I (or if I allowed others) did not keep the faith pure that it would destroy the church and it would lead others to hell, all because I did keep the highest standards possible. I knew how to worship in truth (just like Jesus says of the Jews at the Samaritan well) I had just missed the worshipping in spirit part (truth that doesn’t bring freedom is not truth, it is only half truth.)
So what changed me and my ways? When I took Romans and heard my professor expound on how the weaker brother in Romans is the legalist, and I learned that the Holy Spirit is a lot more powerful than my failings (sooo the same Spirit that convicts me of sin can do the same for others to without me issuing them a rule book? Hmm who’d have thunk it).
So while we sometimes stand back and shake our heads at our brethrens actions, let’s remember that if not for the grace of Christ and the growth produced by the Spirit in our lives we would be with them. Remember, Paul was once one of us too, before he was transformed by grace!

pdl,

my response would be, ok… that’s where you draw the line.  To you, Rock n Roll is ‘synonymous with rebellion’.  I assume you grew up in the 60s and saw all that rebellion first-hand.  It resonates with you.  You can’t separate the two.  That’s fine.

I’m probably a tad bit younger than you; but Rock n Roll is NOT synonymous with rebellion to me.  It never has been.  And I don’t think that many people my age associate it with rebellion.

Might I suggest that if you were around when “Amazing Grace” or whatever was introduced from a bar; and if you were saved out of alcoholism, that you wouldn’t be able to separate the two either.  But you didn’t live then; and you now love Amazing Grace (a great song, by the way).

All this is fine… what disgruntles me is when the people who draw the line in one place condemn others who draw the line in another.  That’s my problem when things get out of hand at this blog… it’s from people drawing a line on a non-biblical issue; and try to make it a biblical issue for others.

Now before you think I’m going all liberal on you… I’m not.  I’m very firm on the things the Bible takes a clear stand on.

In my ‘separatist’ days, we called them standards.  The ‘standards’ were the rules we kept.  Convictions, on the other hand, were what we would die for.

I guess what I’m saying is I don’t like it when people make their ‘standards’ into my ‘convictions’.

It’s late… I hope that makes some sense. 

Todd

pdl,
I would agree that SOME churches have taken it “over the line” with SOME music.
Often I find it has to do with the maturity level or cultural situation of the believer.  There are some bonifide “rock” songs that have Christian oriented lyrics that move my heart deeply.  Some bring deep conviction others lift my passion for Christ and His mission in & for me.
These songs are personal to me yet, as a worship leader, I wouldn’t use them publicly (in the worship service) without carefully considering the context or those recieving it.
Music is a powerful “substance.” And, like many things God has given us, can be use to inform, inspire and draw us to closer to God. And, it can also be abused and be a sound track for rebellion.  Scripture is a gift with many wonderful, great and glorious purposes yet, in the hands (or mouths) of some, it can be used to divide, mis-inform and drive people away.
To me, the most crazy thing is how blind people on either side of the issue can be.
I took part in a community wide Thanksgiving service last week.  The “featured” pastor jumped, screamed (literally SCREAMED!) hollered and ran about the platform like some crazed man!  People from his church supplied the “special” music which was all Southern Gospel with drums, lead guitars, bass, the WORKS!  There was even some soul in one of the songs yet, I’d bet you anything he’d the first use scripture to judge & condem the “sex, drug & rockn’ roll” crowd for acting THE SAME WAY.  I just had to marvel at it all and go eat some turkey.
Good Night
Ben E

I remember a simple lesson in theology class about convictions, pursuasions, and opinions. The good Dr. Scholes helped students develop a sense of what is vital to our faith and what adds to our never ending debate in Chistendom.

Keep our convictions to the essentials(We need not add much to the apostle’s creed). Our useless arguments that Paul warned his young apprentice Timothy abound daily. We think much to highly of our pursuasions and opinions.

Jesus, Paul, and Peter irritated well intended religious folks in thier attempt to impact eternity. We should seek to join their company. It reinvigorates our faith.

Good morning all...Todd,

I agree with your statements on convictions etc… however, my case against Rock-n-Roll as a style linked too closely to be ignored with the rebellion of our culture against God is not an opinion that I formed from personal experience (although I was born in the 60’s) The roots of Rock-n-Roll are historically entirely drawn from satanic/immoral/philosophical rebellion against God and the fruits of it as an expression of rebellion are dropping like rotten figs all around us.  WOW!  I know what I am talking about!  Study the history of Rock-n-Roll with a open mind and an open Bible and you will see that Rock is really the design of the Devil intended specifically to bind the minds/emotions/spirits of its devotees to doctrines of satan, immoral practices and specific rebellion against Jesus Christ.  Space is limited here--but, I assure you I could fill this blogh with statement after statement of rockers who have stated it more clearly that I could ever do.  We can ignore the facts of this special dispensation (style) of satan wrapped in confusion.  Or we can look at it critically and ask God if “rockin” the church house meets HIS STANDARDS of holiness in worship.

pdl

Pdl, I just wanted you know that I understand where you coming from. I felt the same way a few years ago until I met my wife. When I met her she listened to Michael W. Smith. I didn’t like it at first but I listened to it because she enjoyed it and I listened to it with an open mind. Now I am 40 yrs. old and I grew up in the 80’s. Now I love this type of music. I will say though, there are a few out there that you have to question.
Like for instance, Gospel music never use to be popular. You had a few who use to sing it leave and went to country music. Now they have come back to gospel. Why? Because that is where the money is. I disagree with this.. But you take people like Jeremy Camp, Michael, Casting Crowns and many more, who have a mission for the Lord and alot of young people are coming to Christ. Sat. Night Casting Crowns and bldg. 429 where here in concert. There were about 200-300 people who where saved. Some of them where 6- 60 yrs. of age… To be honest with you I like jazz, classical, old country music, 50,60, 80’s, Gospel and Contemporay. If I ask you something would you do it for me… Buy you Michael W. Smiths Vol. 1&2;of praise music, and just set back and listen with an open mind and open heart…

Todd,

So by illustration what you are saying to me is...because David “danced naked in the street” it is ok for us to, with full knowledge, adopt a style of “worship” that is the default expression of Satan’s rebellion in our culture? 

BTW--He wasn’t naked...he wore a priestly linen ephod (2Sam.6:16) and a robe (1Chron.15:27).

Also, I am not against spontaneous, enthusiastic worship driven by the Holy Spirit...this is what David did--with all his might!  Somehow, I see that expression completely disconnected from the image of David “rockin’ the house” gyrating naked to some CCM jam session.

Questions:

Is Rock-n-Roll THE preferred music of this culture’s expression of rebellion against God?

Are the roots of Rock-n-Roll (objectively/historically/currently) in satanism/immorality/rebellion specifically directed against Jesus Christ?

Is style part of the substance of music?

If these questions are answered “yes"--why do we assume that God is ok with it as a form of worship unto Him?

I believe we make that assumption because we like it and it fits well into our man-centered designs regarding how we want to “do church”.

Todd, have you ever taken time with a clear mind before God asked Him if it is ok with Him to allow Rock-n-Roll to drive the form of worship in your church?

I have (and I was leader of a Rock-centered youth worship band)and I heard what I did not want to hear.

I am no Quaker!  Our church gets loud--sometimes spontaneous--often enthusiastic.  We have a “worship team” complete with singers, acustic guitar, electric base, wind instruments, violins, piano, keyboard and YES--Congas!  Yet, we have philosophically made a decision to not do Ronk-n-Roll for the reasons that I have already stated. BTW--we also .ppt our worship up on the big screen. I am not against technology and contemporary instrumentation--but Rock-n-Roll has a message in the style itself that is not compatible with worship of Jesus Christ.

I know we disagree, but please answer the questions I posed above--how do you get around the objective nature of Rock’s satanic connection and the implications I raised in my questions? I don’t mean to be arguementitive, I am just so convinced that Rock is against God and that it is a “Trojan Horse” of Satan’s warring against the Church in this age/culture.

pdl