pdl

I think you have missed Todd and other’s point that, even if you are right in your assumption that rock came about out of rebellion against God, that it is STILL an invention of man.  So what if that’s how it started.  That doesn’t make it inherently evil.  There is no biblical mandate on how we are to worship God.  Wouldn’t Paul go off on that like he did the Galatians?  How in the world can you call it evil when it has been bringing people closer to God in worship settings than old hymns have in 50 years?  (Not a knock on hymns.  they rule)

So yeah, a few people “invented” rock out of rebellion.  But a lot of other people have used it to glorify God and to facilitate a worship experience that has attracted thousands of people to hear the good news.  In fact, it played a crucial role in my salvation.  To hear you call it evil hits a sore nerve.  You may not want to use rock music in your church.  That’s fine.

But God is using it to reach unsaved people like I once was.

Matt,

[Is Rock-n-Roll THE preferred music of this culture’s expression of rebellion against God?

Are the roots of Rock-n-Roll (objectively/historically/currently) in satanism/immorality/rebellion specifically directed against Jesus Christ?

Is style part of the substance of music?]

I think your answer to these was basically:
‘Yes--but so what?’

Pragmatically speaking, you are right to say that Rock-n-Roll is impacticng a lot of people in and outside of the Church.

However, the subtle message that comes in with the adapatation of Rock is: ‘You know what you disciples of Christ, seperation from worldliness is really a second-tier issue to God in the Church.  And you folks who are lost in “drugs, sex and rock-n-roll...don’t worry about it, God is just like you---He even enjoy’s the same music...come on in and have a good time...we’lll talk about the cross you are to bear later after we have entertained you into the Kingdom.

Matt, rock-n-roll is not working...I saw more kids dragged off and enticed by the spirit behind “christian rock” into worldliness and spiritual failure that I ever did “saved” through rock-n-roll in my years working as a youth pastor.  In fact, in my years working with Tenn Challenge as a counsellor I saw more “church kids and pastor’s sons” come through our doors that you could ever imagine.  A common link to their backsliding was the cross-over effect that much of CCM has created among the youth of our churches...crossing over to the world’s rock scene after having their appetites whetted by the “christian rock scene”.  Does this mean that God cannot reach into lives involved in rock?  Of course He can...P-T-L...but when He does it is in spite of the Rock-n-Roll not because of it. 

pdl

pdl

Sorry, not buying it.  Of course you’re gonna see more “church kids and pastors sons” coming throuhg your doors.  Have you ever been one?  I feel sorry for them.  They get hyperexposed to the bible their entire youth and THAT is what turns them off.

Rock n Roll isn’t working?  Are you serious?  Is that why there is a MASSIVE spiritual reformation among teens and college aged people sweeping the nation?  Is that why you can now find people in their early twenties sitting in significant positions in churches because of their passion?  Have you even heard of the Passion movement?

Dude, it’s ok to disagree.  But to make such statements in the face of so much evidence to the contrary...come on man.

Todd says it better than I could.  Style has nothing to do with substance.  Style is how we communicate the substance.  So my answer for that question is a big fat NO.  As for your inference that Rock came about soley out of rebellion...well, I’m not so sure about that one.  I was just going on your assumption.  And is Rock the preferred rebellion?  I’m honeslty gonna offer that it’s not now.  Rock is tame by comparison to some of the crap out there today.  But even then, I have definitely seen even rap (which I personally despise, though for no spiritual reason) reach even the hardest of hearts.

Music is one of the most prevalent concepts in the OT.  To infer that God only uses certain types to reach people is naive.  Music alone doesn’t lead people away from God.  It’s called free will.  And it may have been a lack of discipleship on their mentors’ parts. (I’m referring to the ones you mentioned.) I don’t know, but demonizing a style of music simply because it is used by pagans is foolish and I think it is a perfectly good waste of potential to use for reaching people for Christ and for glorifying God.

Wait a minute, Todd...what was your answer to #2? 

You are saying: ‘Yes RR’s roots are(objectively/historically/currently) in satanism/immorality/rebellion specifically directed against Jesus Christ...but that’s ok because generations past did the same thing--so let’s bring it on into the church?’

ok…

pdl

That’s cool if you feel that way pdl.  While I’m not sure if there was an attempt at belittling me because of my age and experience in there somewhere, I’ll just choose not to see it.  We can just disagree.

Matt...no attempt to belittle...honest...just letting you know that I have “been there and done that” (I even have the t-shirt to prove it!)...these are things to think and pray about…

pdl

can anyone tell that pdl and I must be having a slow day at the office?  heh.

Jeff said:
[I have long hair that touches my shoulders, and a beard. I love riding motorcycles, and 4 wheelers. I like wearing blue jeans, pocket tee-shirts, and leather coats. Does this make me a rebel?]

Depends what kind of bike you ride...I’m from Milwaukee and if you ride anything but a Harley in these parts YOU ARE not only a rebel, but a heretic…

About the hair and such...anything can be an idol or worn/done to communicate a message that is not in keeping with the message/person/character of Christ. Our standards for such things should be derived directly from the Holy Spirit.  In other words, have you taken time to ask Him if it is ok with Him for you to have long hair...ie does it communicate to the world and the family of God the message/person/character of Christ.  If the Holy Spirit affirms that it is consistant with Christ and not a stumbling block to others you have liberty to do as He directs.

pdl

pdl,

I believe I answered no to the first four questions you inquired of me.

You see… here’s the problem we have when man draws the line.

You draw the line saying RR is of the devil.

I obviously disagree and draw the line in a different place.

To others, the issue of long hair (brought up by Jeff) is a place to draw the line.  After all, all the RRers donned long hair.  Long hair, to some, is a sign of disobedience (as are beards and riding motorcycles).

About the hair, you said:
“About the hair and such...anything can be an idol or worn/done to communicate a message that is not in keeping with the message/person/character of Christ.”

See, you don’t draw the line on the hair but you do about the music.  My thinking on music is like yours on hair:

“About the music and such...anything can be an idol or played/performed to communicate a message that is not in keeping with the message/person/character of Christ.”

Again, it’s where YOU have drawn the line.  My feeling is… that’s fine for you… please live out your beliefs.  But don’t try and draw the line for me on non-biblical issues.

Whether it is hair length or music styles; respect other people’s tastes/preferences, even when you don’t necessarily agree.

Todd

one more, pdl…

I applaud your efforts… but have you ever been to a sporting event?  people act the same there (drinking, swearing, lewdness)… you aren’t saying that sports is of satan are you?  Obviously sports brings out the worst in people as well.

Todd

Todd said:

[I applaud your efforts… but have you ever been to a sporting event? people act the same there (drinking, swearing, lewdness)… you aren’t saying that sports is of satan are you? Obviously sports brings out the worst in people as well.]

Todd, if you a rooting for any Chicago team, then, yes, your participation is “south” of God’s country!

Anyway, I don’t understand your point on this one????

pdl

Todd,

BTW--I am not asking you to draw any lines on this issue!  Only the Holy Spirit can do that based on the Word of God!  I am wondering...Do you have a problem with the Apostle Paul “drawing lines” on hair length on men and jewelry/braided hair on women--how about head coverings? Those were/are debateable issues based on cultural norms--how does your teaching of non-line-drawing reconcile with such passages?  Should he have kept his opinion quiet on these and how they applied to the church’s relationship to the culture?  Should he have just respected the opinions of others without challenging cultural applications/practices in the church? Are you a pastor?  If so how do you deal with debateable practices/issues in your church that bear messages embedded in the culture that threaten God’s intentions for your church?

pdl

Terry,

Depends on what those things are.  If you are living in willful sin or have wandered from the faith into doctrines of demons/true heresies...then the line is already drawn by God--repent!

pdl