Christopher,

I am part of a church that I think “gets it”. We have great sound and lights, we have a great presentation, we keep very busy doing our great presentations…

...and people come in the doors and lives are changed and souls are reached by Jesus…

...and those people go out the doors into the community and lives are changed and souls are reached by Jesus…

And by the way… I think there are plenty of people that come every week who aren’t “real Christians”. I hope they keep coming back… until they are…

I have a couple thoughts.  First, these churches most likely have a commitment to a small set of unmovable core values.  They basically stay focused on the key values they possess without getting distracted.  These churches also have a radical commitment to expansion.  They are committed to getting the word out because they believe what they are saying is necessary for changing lives. Sort of a god to great principle. 

My second thought is that to many Christians with a poor understand of church history have a sort of romantic perversion with persecution.  While persecution can and does bring about many good things in the church it also causes great harm.  Many times the influence of Christianity has been stomped out of a culture by persecution.  Often persecution has not come because of complacency but because of a radical commitment to Christ.  So when some Christian calls for persecution as an answer to a problem the church faces I get frustrated.  I for one do not want to watch my family die, be raped, tortured and harmed because someone hates Jesus. 

SO Christopher I not only think your statement “Christianity in America needs to fall under some extreme persecution” is wrong but not even close to the heart of God.

Ever think that you might be part of our persecution, Will?

II Timothy 3:12

Todd

Gary writes “We always wanted to have at least 1/3 of our Sunday morning attendance as “Visitors” to whom we could share the gospel or get into a discipleship/growth process.”

We have the same goal. It’s kinda like the Ed Young explanation of what a healthy church looks like. Not all mature believers, but rather 1/3 mature believers, 1/3 folks who are figuring the whole Christianity thing out, and 1/3 people who are still waiting to make a decision. Obviously, as a church grows numerically and spiritually, some of those people transition into the “next category”, and unfortunately some don’t.

But we’re not heavily persecuted in our community, so I guess we must not be doing it right…

Leonard,

Thanks for the lesson in Greek, do your magic with this verse please.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Same Greek word. 

The very “bitter” Will.

Sometimes, not all, persecution comes from within the church as we can see here.  Most pastors in churches that are attempting to transition have experienced this I assume.  In fact, many church leaders who have tried to remove obstacles to faith have been persecuted.  Jesus was a prime example here.  Remember, Jesus would not have died on the cross if it wasn’t for His people choosing the thief over Him. 

When Paul is persecuted from the world it doesn’t seem to faze him.  However, when he faces persecution from those in the family of God he truly gets emotionally distraught and downright defensive.  It hurts.

What’s going on in some of the hearts and attitudes on this post is hurting the body, is not glorifying or edifying God, and is really shameful.

JMO.

Will,
You flatter me, I really cannot work magic with verses.  I just try to think of them in context.  Try it.
A very (Non bitter) Leonard

Christopher,
A couple thoughts.  first, not all the people you mentioned were marytyef for their passion for lost souls.  John the baptist, Isaiah, Jeremiah and ezekiel to name a few.  Lost sould was more than likely not a concept these guys had at the time of their deaths. 

China in the 8th centruy I believe extinguished Christianity through persecution, North Africa had christianity extinguished by Islam, Japan had it extinguished by Samuari and shoguns warriors .  Not until missionaries carying the Gospel of Christ returned to these lands did they recieve hope again. 

I would ask you where the bible tells us God uses persecution to advance the gospel not stifle it.  I see the impact of persecution caused the church to spead out but it was Love that caoused it to advance.  The point of persecuiton is the value of christ in our lives not weeding out people. 

As for my familiy, I actually work hard to prepare my family not for perscution but for faithfulness to Christ no matter what the cost.  I do not want them crushed by persecution nor do I want them seduced by materialism.  I want them to know how awesome God is.  Our phrase is that he is worth dying for and even more worth living for.  Your question if asked to question my faithfulness then it is out of line and drips with pride.  If it is asked with humility and is seeking to know how I prepare my family, thanks.  I cannot tell with written word the tone of the word.

Christopher, you rightly point out that some Christians are apathetic about sharing the Good News with others.  However, you wrongly assume that the posters on this site belong to this group.  To me, this communicates a certain amount of arrogance on your part, which you may not be intending to communicate.

As far as the persecution that you seem to desire, I think you need to realize that when you pray for persecution, you are really praying for people to do evil things to others.  Does God ever ask us to pray for an increase in evil?

One final comment and I’m going to prepare my heart for an awesome weekend,

To suggest that I’m taking scripture out of context with respect to persecution is absurd.  The theme of scripture is clear, the evidence in church history is overwhelming, those who obey Christ will be persecuted. How that persecution manifests itself varies.  Some may lose jobs, be betrayed by family, or face physical harm etc.  To teach that one should not expect persecution for following Christ is irresponsible.  In light of today, Good Friday , it’s even more troubling.

God Bless I’m done, Will

Nora,

I don’t assume that posters on this blog are apathetic and if it came across that way then I humbly apologize. 

As far as the persecution, I know (and I know that I know) that persecution is the result of being a follower of Christ.  I don’t like it or desire it for me or anyone else.  My life is usually not in danger though we had a man try to strangle one of our group in Hollywood last year.  But if you take a stand for Jesus at work or in your neighborhood or in your immediate family, expect persecution in some form.  I was sat down and told not to witness to anyone at work or I would get fired.  I showed them documentation that defended my ability to speak to anyone at work about the Gospel as long as it did not interfere with my work or their’s.  I lost my job 6 months later and I would do nothing differently today.  We have had the police called on us, we had water bottles and candy bars we had given away thrown back at us in an effort to make us shut up.  Believe me when I say that I go out in a spirit of love, knowing the consequences of dying without Jesus.  We share with them the whole counsel of God and the truth brings out the worst in some.  We do not want to rile anyone but it isn’t the messenger they hate...it is the message but they take it out on us.  It is heartbreaking knowing they have rejected to only chance at the righteousness of God.  But God is sovereign and I know they He uses the foolishness of the message preached to save those who would believe.  We are either planting or watering and it is God who gives the increase.

I am not so sure the Gospel is offensive in as much as it gives offense.  I know I was not offended by the Gospel, I was simply drawn to a Jesus who loved me enough to die for my sins. In my lostness I did not need to be offended, I just wanted Jesus the first time I understood he wanted me.  I think we mistakenly say the gospel is offensive. 

I do believe the gospel gives offense to people whose hearts are not humble or receptive but it does not necessarily mean all who come to Christ must be offended before doing so.  Truth Hurts is not in the bible but Truth sets you free is.  I have shared Christ with many people who are disparate because life has offended, sin has afflicted and they respond because Jesus offers forgiveness, healing, freedom and hope. 

We have many people who attend our church who do not as of yet believe in Christ nor have they surrendered their will to his.  The fact they return week after week, finally to give their life to Christ is what I hope for.  The message that does not offend is not necessarily watered down, it could just be spoken well.  Take a look at who was offended by truth in the New Testament and you will find it is almost always someone religious.  You will find it was someone who “told the truth like it should be” and study carefully what they were offended by and you will find it was often Jesus inclusion of sinners not his exclusion of sinners. 

Will and Christopher, you came across this place and and preached your postings here as though we did not care about the lost, as though we water down the truth. This is a place where people discuss ideas without condemnation in order to learn from each other.  I am glad you guys are here and hope you can see from our overall tone we are striving to reach as many people for Christ as possible. 

I know people suffer for Christ and I know living Godly lives can bring about that suffering but we too often use suffering as a litmus test of whether or not we really believe when sometimes suffering is nothing more than evidence we are rude or belligerent in the name of Christ.  I have had guns, knives and other weapons pulled on my many times, I have been threatened, had my life, my kids lives and my wife’s life threatened for the sake of the Gospel but the reality is that those situations are not the norm.  Over the years I ave been privileged to share Christ with countless numbers of people, most hear the GOOD NEWS and whether they choose to follow Christ or not do not hate nor do they become so deeply offended that the door closes.  The threats I face are not usually from the audience of listeners but from those whose drug money, gang life or other source of control or power is being threatened. 

In college I used to share Christ in Westwood but never had people threaten me with the exception of someones pimp and that was because I was interfering with business.  Sinful people, broken people, lost people flocked to Jesus.  Prideful people, arrogant people, religious people, powerful people did not flock to Jesus.  If sinners are repelled by the message of hope, forgiveness and grace then I suggest you rethink your approach. 

Finally I love Jesus not because he will wipe me out if I mess up but because he did not wipe me out when I was so messed up.  It was the kindness of God that drew my heart to repentance not the wrath and fury of God.

I grew up in what is often referred to as a culture of “Fighting Fundamentalists” who “Loved Jesus but fought with everybody else.” We often complained of persecution. 

I suggest that Todd’s Ten Churches have actually discovered some things that Jesus taught and the Holy Spirit alone gives, the fruit of the Spirit as opposed to the fruit of the flesh we see outlined in Galatians 5.

Actually Jesus told His disciples to reach out with the fruit of the Spirit. In the only place that Jesus actually set down a process for evangelising the emphasis was upon gentle caring through peace, love, listening and prayer for healing. In Luke 10 Jesus sent the people He had trained out into the villages and countryside as “Lambs among wolves” not as “wolf hunters”.

The instructions of Jesus focused on blessing the lost with peace and eating with those who received the blessing but “shaking the dust off their shoes” when meeting unpeaceful folks.  The next steps include table fellowship, listening to the hosts’ troubles and praying for them. Only then are we to tell them about the “Kingdom of God”. The result? Satan is “pulled down from his perch like lighting”.  Those who are looking for persecution may be literally asking for it by acting in the flesh and engaging in human warfare rather than spiritual warfare.