The Beer-Drinking Poker-Playing Pastor

I've said here that I often like articles that make me think. This one did. Probably because I agreed strongly in the beginning of the article with some of the things the pastor is saying; but disagree wholeheartedly with the place that his spiritual journey has taken him. Take a read and see what you think...

This interview comes from SFGate.com...

You were the head of a pretty big Southern Baptist church, and now you’re “The Poker Pastor.” How did that happen?
It began with a personal transformation of sorts. I was busy growing a church but I never stopped to ask the hard question: Are we really doing what Jesus asked us to do in making disciples? I believe that most Christians in America believe Jesus is, if not the only way, then the best way to get to heaven. But I don’t think they believe Jesus’ way of life is a better way of life in the here and now.

Why?
If you look at the actual teachings of Jesus, he talks about turning the other cheek, about going the second mile, about forgiveness. He talks about loving people. He says the greatest of all the commandments is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then to love one another, just as much as you love yourself. I think that’s the way of Jesus.

And you don’t think enough Christians are living that way?
No, I don’t. I’m a nobody and I acknowledge that—please don’t hear any judgment or condemnation or any kind of condescending spirit in what I’m saying—but I think somehow we have decided it’s more important to be right than it is to act right.

When you decided to leave your church, how did your parishioners react?
It was a shock to them. And they were disappointed, many of them. But I came to a place where I realized that the church I was pastoring wasn’t able to go where I was going. So I left the church and joined a kind of a citywide ministry that gave me some room to explore some of these things.

How did your personal life change after you struck out on this different path? I remember you told me that you and your family had to downsize your lifestyle.
We went through a phase where this ministry that I was a part of couldn’t pay our salaries, and we missed paychecks. Then when I started this new little group that is the congregation I lead now, they couldn’t pay me a full-time wage. I don’t want it to sound like we sold our house or our cars. We still had stuff. I think the biggest thing that we downsized was my ego. I’m a success junkie, so growing a big church and having everybody think, “Oh wow! Look at Ken! He’s got this great thing going on,” was important to me. Suddenly, I was doing something very small and something that, in everybody’s typical perception of what success is in the Christian church, was like a failure. I had to deal with my own self-esteem issues—I still deal with some of that. In the early days, about every third day I was ready to quit and go back to doing what I knew how to do.

You started this new ministry by holding services at someone’s coffee shop. How did that work?
We began by thinking we were just starting a new church, and along the way it moved in a completely different direction. We were experimenting with different ideas, and in the midst of that we dreamed about being in a space that was not a church, that was more among the people.

We heard about a place in a community called Tomball, about 10 minutes from where we were living in Houston, where this guy had a coffee shop and live-music venue. He had some kind of ministry affiliation and was open to groups using the facility. He told us, “Why don’t you-all come do your church over here?” And so we took our church over to that place, which is called Main Street Crossing. It seats about 120 people, has a stage and sound system. So on Friday and Saturday nights we have live-music bands, that kind of thing. On weekdays, it’s a coffee shop, a place to get something to eat.

Your Web site describes Main Street Crossing “as kind of like church, but it’s not.” How is it not like church?
I think it’s not like church in that we are a venue that serves beer and wine.

Yeah! (laughter) And how is it like church, would you say?
It’s like church in that there is a lesson or a message, if you will, spoken during services. But it’s much shorter than the average sermon. It’s not 30 or 45 minutes or an hour. And I think it’s similar in that there will be time for meditation and prayer. Where people are invited and encouraged and assisted to connect with God.

Where does the poker come in?
We were looking for a way to get people into our venue, and poker seemed to be so popular that we said, “Let’s bring a poker league here.” And it just skyrocketed. Our league plays every Monday, Tuesday and Friday night. And we have anywhere from 35 to 65 players at a session.

I’ve heard that you tell people that despite being a pastor, you will “whup their ass” at poker. Is that true?
(Laughs) I don’t know where you got that quote from, but the thing is, well, I told you I was a success junkie. So whatever I do, I want to do it well. And so I decided after the first night of poker that I had to learn how to play simply because there were people there, and I’m trying to connect with people, and what better way than to sit down at a table for three hours with a group of people and play cards?

So I started reading books and learned how to play poker at a pretty good level. And actually, as of last week, I am the point leader for the league that plays at our place.

And how do your new visitors respond to an ass-whupping, poker-playing pastor?
You know, most typical church people look at me like: “You left this nice big church to come do this? And now you’re drinking beer and playing poker? You’ve lost the faith.” And I just have to live with all that. I’m not worried about impressing the church people. What I’m worried about, or what I’m most concerned with, is just connecting with these people that play poker.

And I feel like I pastor all of them. I know about when they are going in the hospital, I know about the surgeries they have, I know about their marital problems, because they have begun to see me as a pastor that they can trust.

I think the biggest issue out there today for a lot of folks is they just don’t think there is anybody they can trust with their stuff. They think he’s gonna preach to me, or just tell me to come to church or pray a little harder and everything will be fixed. I believe we’re all broken people. We’re just broken in different places, and we all have addictions, and that we just need to come clean with all that and say: “Life is a journey, and faith is a journey. Wherever you are in that journey, let’s journey together, and maybe we can help each other as we go.”

My understanding is that gambling isn’t approved of by Southern Baptists. Do your poker games include gambling?
No. They don’t. It’s just a league. The players don’t pay to play. And there can be no exchanging of money at any of our sessions. If we did, we would lose our license—our beer and wine license—and feasibly they could shut us down, and feasibly they could haul me to jail.

Your Web site invites anyone who is on a spiritual journey to come over to Main Street Crossing. Do you try to convert people who aren’t Christians, or do you tend to see all spiritual paths as valid?
That’s a great question! And I don’t know how to answer it. I’ve been taught all my life that Jesus is the only way, OK? I don’t want to say—and I hope that you won’t misinterpret this at all—I don’t want to say that I still believe that, and I don’t want to say that I don’t believe that. I’m still finding my own way as to what I believe about that. But here’s what I do believe. I believe the Bible has revealed God’s message. The Bible says that “If you seek me, you will find me. If you seek for me with all your heart.” And I believe that’s true of any person. They will find God if they seek him. And so the other stuff ... I haven’t gotten it figured out yet.

So I take it you’re not doing the hard sell, then?
No, we’re not doing the hard sell. But I do encourage people to come follow the way of Jesus, try it on and see if it works, if it’s real. And so, yeah, there is some sales involved. My view is that following Jesus is the best way to live.

Can you tell me about the faith you were raised in?
I was raised as a Southern Baptist in a small community here in Texas where you had only two choices: Either you were a Baptist or a Catholic, and if you didn’t go to church at all, you were the outcast. My little church was pretty traditional and very conservative in its ideology. You could probably use the term “fundamentalist” to describe how I was raised—meaning we took the Bible to be literally true and without error, and we believed that Jesus was the only way to get to heaven.

What do you consider your religious affiliation these days?
Until five or six years ago, I would have said to you that I was a very conservative Southern Baptist. Now I don’t know what I am. I don’t want to really label myself, because I’m still in transition. It’s not that I have given up the faith—I haven’t. I’ve got lots of questions and lots of doubts, but I’m pursuing God and I’m following Jesus as much as I ever have in my life.

Do you still believe the Bible’s absolutely true without error?
No. I look at the Bible differently now. I see it as the story of God’s relationship with people. It’s the story of God offering reconciliation. And it’s the story of right living. Typically, we think of right living as just the moral side, but it’s the social-justice side, too. And I think one of the things that has changed in me is that I’m much more aware of that aspect of the Bible.

I do think the Bible gives us instructions about life, but now I think it’s more of a story than a kind of one-two-three instruction book.
What have you learned about ministering to people at Main Street Crossing that you probably would never have learned in a traditional church?

I’ve learned that people are just people. I’ve learned that there are a lot of really good folks who don’t go to church. I’ve hung out with people at the poker table that I would never have hung out with before. They wouldn’t have come to my church or darkened my door.

Do you have any advice for other ministers?
My advice would be, first of all, don’t be afraid of personal transformation. And by that I mean huge change in a person’s life. Don’t be afraid of that.

Why would that be scary to them?
I think it scares the living daylights out of most people. Because we all are comfortable knowing what we know, doing what we do, going where we go, and it’s the unknown, it’s moving out into a realm that is so uncertain. You start to ask yourself: “Is this really right? Am I wrong? What if I’m a heretic? What if I have lost the faith? What if what I’m doing is absolutely the worst thing?” I mean, there’s all kinds of uncertainty, and most of us, I think, and I’m included in that, want certainty.

Do you have any advice for people that are following their gut reactions and pursuing what they believe is right, like you did?
One piece of advice I would give is: You cannot do this alone. You’ve got to find some people that you journey with that, whether it’s once a month, or once a week or however, who validate you and affirm you, and encourage you, and help you in the journey. Because I promise you I would have quit without that.

FOR DISCUSSION:  What are your first impressions after reading this article.

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This post has been viewed 1926 times and was added on July 18, 2006 by Todd Rhoades.
Filed under: Ministry-Specific Help  Evangelism & Outreach  
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I'm Todd Rhoades... the MMI guy. I'm also on the team at Leadership Network (although that doesn't mean that they endorse everything I write here). In my past life, I was the founder and developer of a website named ChurchStaffing.com.

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