“The only reason I think it’s important to talk about is because this is a trend that is not going away.  Ticked off people will not just leave your church anymore.  They’ll start a blog about why they left (and encourage others to do the same).”

Definitely agree with this. I think one of the main reasons why is in the “your church”....... The ticked off people more than likely believe it is “their church"… There are hardly ever any real winners in these types of situations. IMO, there is just always more hurt done than good. Yes, there is some thing to be said for others realizing they are not alone in their pain, frustrations, or etc.... Yet, blogging is such a different form of communication and can literally touch so many more lives. Lives that might not have any thing to do with any of “His” churches.... or that will just move even further away as a result. Again… just my opinion.

To answer your question Todd in regards to PR in this type of situation: I think the church that is getting blogged about needs to walk a fine line where PR is concerned. One church that will remain nameless at this point in the discussion handled “public” disagreements by having an open forum at their physical church. Those who had any concerns were asked to bring them before the leadership of the church at the time. Any other members were invited to come. It was put out via the church’s email list, thru their church’s newletter via snailmail, and etc weeks and up to the day before hand. (plenty of notice given for those who wanted or thought they needed to attend)

Great point Todd,

we haven’t answered the initial question.
there will always be discontents in a church that leave for whatever reason, but how does a ministry deal with such aggressive, unforgiveing unteachable, whiny, people? (that was suppose to be pointed at the venom blog guy ) who think that they are so important and self proclaiming reformist that they can fix or bring down this ministry, I wonder if he is just mad because no one will attend his self righteous, scoffers bible study that happens each and every saturday night at the Johnnie McBrown High School ( I made up the bible study part)

So, if what I’m reading is right Peter, we should, as Christians, stand idly by and let our fellow brethren be led into bondage by men preaching heinously false doctrine? When it boils down to it and you get past the parody, that’s what the blog is all about. It isn’t about attacking the leaders, it’s about the people who have gone there and have been liberated from the corruption in this church and in the leaders of this church.

You see it as contrary to everything you’ve ever been taught, which, to be honest, is how almost everyone there felt when they first read it. In a way, it exposes the flaws of many churches, not just CBC. You can call it rogue, you can call it whatever you want, but when it boils down to it, it’s a group of people who believe in Jesus Christ, believe in God, but have decided to ditch the rest of the extra fluff and garbage that much of the Institutionalized Church and MFI-affiliated churches in particular are selling. You don’t like that. The Institutionalized Church for the most part has taught her congregants not to think for themselves about these kinds of matters, but rather to just accept what pastor has to say. We disagree. Is it wrong? We’ll let God be the judge. Do we all feel liberated? To the utmost.

Mr. T,

This has NOTHING to do with whether or not we should sit by while false teaching and pastoral abuse runs rampant. It is true that some are called to confront others who are in error, and it is true that that can be, in the proper context, the right and godly thing to do. I am completely convinced that in this case the context and method and perhaps the motive are all wrong. It is all about whether or not this kind of “confrontation” is right or biblical.

When I asked Johnpaul if he confronted the church leaders before he started his blog, he says “The answer is No, and I will admit that it was wrong to have started that way (I have apologized for that, btw). We didn’t really think about much when we started the blog and we just went for it. Then it quickly became a big deal.” and then later… “I should have had that conversation before I started the blog...” At this point he admits that he was in error.

To my question “Is it possible that if you are no longer a member of that church and in fellowship with them that you are not the one to do the criticizing?” he said “That may be the case, but don’t my ten years there give me the right to say something?” Johnpaul here admits that my point may be valid. If it “may be the case” that he is not the one to do the criticizing, then some serious soul-searching should take place. Several on this forum have suggested that his ten years there do NOT necessarily give him the right to say something.

Finally he says “I wish someone within the church would be able to stand up against this, but it isn’t going to happen. Until then…we continue to blog.” after saying that he wasn’t someone throwing stones from a distance, when in reality, in a very real sense, that is exactly what he is doing. He is not a member of that church and continues to criticize it from outside and encourages other people to continue this regardless of their motives by providing a form.

Johnpaul, I’d love to talk more about this, sure, but if Matthew 18 isn’t enough on this, I am not sure what is. I have never implied that your complaints might not be right and valid. Even if they ALL are right and valid, the manner in which you’ve proceeded is, by your own admission, not the way it should have been done. You are hoping that God will bring good out of the mistakes you’ve made. I wonder how much more good He would bring out of you apologizing, shutting it down, and prayerfully moving on.

Pranks?? I wouldn’t know where to start.... ‘Sides… someone reading might actually realize that it was me who pulled it on them and not who they thought. That’s what I get for sending people here...... lol

i am praying for CC, the leaders, and former members and leaders who are concerned about the issues raised...i pray God’s perfect will for this situation so that disclosure, healing, correction, and restoration occur where needed.... God knows what and who needs what and He will do it for His glory and others’ benefit..peace

Lets not forget that we battle not against flesh and blogs but against principalities and spirits of darkness.  Remembering that we will be much more gracious.

Dear Mr. Rhoades,

As (until recently) a member of City Bible Church (formerly Bible Temple) for more decades then I care to count, I read your article (as well the many comments) with great interest.  While I do not agree with many of the vulgar topics or non-christian attitudes displayed by many of the folks at the city business blog, I have learned to withhold judgement in some areas.  One of the topics being put forth in the comments here is the unscriptural way in which the blog was started.  One area of concern for me and my wife was our church’s response to the blog being discussed.  In total violation of 1 Corinthians 6 the church leaders chose to “take their brethren to court” rather than try to follow a more scriptural path. 
The paperwork JohnPaul received is documented here: http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/letter_from_cbc_lawyers_0001.jpg.
We heard of this situation from several of our dear friends in positions of leadership, as well as our district pastors, and were grieved at the path that our Pastors chose.

While I’ll choose not to gossip about this any further (and thus make your blog guilty of the same sin the “other blog” is being accused of) I’ll say that this was a final straw for us (and far from the worse violations of scripture the Senior Pastor has committed).  We followed Scripture and the Holy Spirit to the best of our ability and found that the leadership did their best to cut off any contact with us, and even tried to influence our kids against us.

While I understand what some folks here are saying, and I am far from an advocate of blogs gossiping or otherwise degrading the Church, please understand that this is not a healthy normal church but rather something else that needs to be dealt with outside of the normal channels.
We are not bitter, but rather praying for our friends that we had to leave behind.
After reading your blog, I feel I can answer what Frank Damazio did (sue), and what I would do in his position (1 Corinthians 6).

God Bless
Joe Christian

I learned long ago that there are always people who criticize you in ministry.  And it is ALWAYS better to do what is right, even when you are extremely wounded, hurting, angry and bitter, and totally wronged.

That goes for both sides of the fence, as a ministry staff person or as a church member. 

I know there are people in our community who trash us.  And these are other believers. But the high road is always the way of blessing. 

So, to answer the question “What do you do when others wrong you?” (Jan’s paraphrase) I kindly confront.  And if there is no response, I take a person with me and if there is still no response, and all I can do is live with it and blog, I shake the dust from my feet and go out and serve the Lord.

And when I run into the trashers, I paste a smile on my face and ask them what God is doing in their lives, how’s their ministry and how many people were saved this week?  It ALWAYS leaves them sputtering and never makes ME look bad.

I think these bloggers, whether right or not in confronting this church, are in the wrong now, by continuing to rant and write.  It’s a sad commentary on Christians in my opinion and a poor testimony to non-believers who may happen on their blog.

Better to move on and forward and start serving the Lord in joy, then let how others have treated you fester and shift your focus from moving out with what God wants you to do in life and ministry.

Now they look bad too.

I would again like to thank everyone for throwing in their two cents on our little blog. I would also like to point out, in as kind of a way as I can, that many of you all are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing us of doing.

You are judging us for judging them...it’s a vicious circle.

Anyway, to answer a couple of questions:

Andy, this may not be the answer you were looking for, but we actually do write about many different churches, pastors, and sermons. It certainly is not just contained to CBC; we will gladly comment on any false teaching (or good teaching for that matter) that we hear.

Jan, you are right, the high road is always the best taken. I can’t help but point out though that although you may think that asking the “trashers” about their ministry and “how many were Saved” never makes you look bad, but I think it makes you pretentious. Just because your words are kind doesn’t mean your intentions are. I always liked the saying “Let’s skip the formalities and get down to what we are here for”.

I imagine you would get much further with many of your “trashers” if you tried honesty.

ReGen, your comment/prayer is great. Thank you.

Joe C, I’m sorry to hear your story. I truely am.

Also, here are some other links here at MMI where we’ve discussed this type of thing:

http://mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/warning_the_internet_is_a_tool_that_could_ruin_your_church_and_your_reputat/P25/

http://mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/trend_angry_church_members_now_turn_to_blogs_for_release/P75/

Todd

Johnpaul,

You wrote:  Andy, this may not be the answer you were looking for, but we actually do write about many different churches, pastors, and sermons. It certainly is not just contained to CBC; we will gladly comment on any false teaching (or good teaching for that matter) that we hear.

Actually I’m not surprised.  Seems that there is always a “church heresy police” out there somewhere.  For years I pastored in a church fellowship that was really quick to find something wrong with others.  Some of it justified and some of it not.  But what I also discovered was that when you spend a lot of time doing that sort of thing, you personally lose sight of touching other for Christ.  Maybe the reason is that when you reach to touch them...they duck. 

I look around and see that there are a lot of churches and groups that I do not agree with...many of them I couldn’t even come close to agreeing with.  But as I look at the last words in Jesus’ commission to us...I see that we are to Make Disciples, not take them apart. 

Once again...Johnpaul, God has a way of dealing with those that are “false prophets”, all you’re doing is allowing people to “spit fire” on the Internet at this point and think that they are doing something for the Kingdom.  Actually they are, their helping to keep people away.

OK...I’m done with this subject.  Mainly because I learned in 30 years of ministry that when people believe that they are on a mission to “clean up the church” or “expose the false teachers” and so on...that they are like a dog that kills it first chicken.  They just keep at it.

Todd, Great comments I will look into them more. I am enjoying your site very much, thank you for providing this place.

Andy, I also appreciate your comments. I would like to think that I am slightly different most “church cleaners”, which is partly why I have enjoyed reading everyones view on this site.

When my brother and I started the City Business Blog, we didn’t give it much thought. One night during a phone conversation Justin (Catalyst) said lets start a blog...and the next morning he had it up and running. We didn’t think anyone would read it, but we were wrong. We had so many hits and so many comments within the first couple of weeks that we realized that we weren’t the only ones who had these feelings. I had expected it to be a short lived thing that would go away after a couple of weeks. At that time I was faced with a difficult decision, Should I be writing out my issues with a church on this blog?

I met with an elder from CBC at that time, then I spent time praying about it, I talked with my pastor, my mother, and my wife and in the end I felt that blogging was the right thing to do.

I have always felt that the right or wrong line depended on my attitude. Why was I blogging? Was it out of spite and for revenge or was it out of a sincere desire to see the church reform? 

I have continued to pray about this and still feel no conviction to stop, however, you all have given me plenty to think about. One of the reasons I love all your comments is becaused they are seemingly unbiased. You don’t know me or CBC so your comments/thoughts are not personal. That is something that I have not had before.  So again thank you, I am going to take another hard look at what we have been doing.