Sorry about the bolded text, I think quoting the Bible verse caused some HTML tag to slip in there. I honestly didn’t mean to shout.

So many issues so little time.  Johnpaul and others who added to this discussion thanks and thanks for the tone of your replies as well.  I am one of those who would be in disagreement with the blog incase you couldn’t tell from my previous posts.  I also have NO connection to the church nor have I ever heard of them until I read the posts. 

I really think this boils down to Gossip.  Does this blog promote and provide for gossip?  A quick and a slow read of the blog would have to reveal a YES.  Is God seeking to use gossip to correct his kids? 

All of the...”it is a last resort, it is how we protect those people in the church from abusive pastors, it is how we ... vent/heal” and the likes are not biblical responses.  Does this blog promote or provide for rampant gossip?  Then stop it because it is facilitating sin and destruction in the lives of those who participate. 

For those who say “no, it helps me,” I ask helps you what?  If it helped then it would go away by itself because people would post a time or two and then be more whole.  What happens is there are a group of regular posters who post stuff that feeds the bitterness and self righteousness of all. 

I believe you are some good people caught in a dangerous current.  You are worried for the people “caught under the bad teaching of Frank” but not worried that you facilitate gossip.  What about the brothers and sisters who are learning to manage their pain by blogging?  Did every person who posted go to Frank and the elders?  What about the people who get caught in the current of gossip because of this blog?  What about the self-righteousness that gets fed and the disrespect that becomes common place towards elders and shepherds all because of this blog?

It seems that this blogs potential for doing good is biblically outweighed by the damage it causes.  It is not just the people under Frank being hurt but the people under this blog too. 

Why not start a prayer only meeting for Frank?  Why not start a prayer only meeting for those who are truly wounded not just angry or bitter? 

One final thought?  When my kids say I am sorry but do not change the offense made I tell them they do not understand apologizing.  To apologize involves repentance, a change of the offense.  To say sorry I started a blog wrongfully and then to continue blogging and even accelerate the blogging, that is not repentance.

Working backward:

‘Scrupe, I appreciate the support, but I think it is a stretch to compare our blog to the Good Samaritan…

Leonard, Can my blog be a place for gossip. Yes, it can be, however there are many places that breed gossip… (and while I realize you are all going to destroy me for this I just can’t resist...) for instance...I have noticed that many “Prayer Chains” are nothing more than “Gossip Chains”. All you pastors who right now are thinking “not in my Church”, stop lying to yourself. Does this make gossip ok? No. If I am promoting gossip it is wrong, but just because you see someone use my blog for gossip does not necessarily make it bad.

You also say:

It seems that this blogs potential for doing good is biblically outweighed by the damage it causes.  It is not just the people under Frank being hurt but the people under this blog too.

I would say the exact same thing about City Bible Church. There is plenty good that comes from that church, but the amount of pain and misteachings that I have seen outweigh all else.

Wendi, Idols, Idols, Idols. I get nailed on this subject so often by God. We must watch out for Idols. Is the blog an idol for me now? Good question. 

And Peter (my email will be coming soon). You say:

There are church leaders here (that number is growing) who strongly feel that what your blog is doing is wrong. Is it possible that you’ve decided that you will only listen to the people who agree with what you’ve already decided is the best course of action. Think carefully about this. I guess I’d like to know what the scriptural imperative is to continue it when it was started on the wrong foot. “God told me to” is, for me, just not good enough.

I listen to God first and man second. I am assuming your comment about that not being good enough is because you do not believe that God has actually told me to do this (and not that you don’t care if God did). Correct me if I am wrong here.

For the record, and to give you all more ammo, you are right Peter, I do not feel that God has told me to do this. I also do not feel that He has told me to stop. So, here we are, with a group of random pastors from around the U.S. telling me to stop...(btw, is it possible that you pastors have made a snap judgement about something which is not so easy to judge?)...I have not listened to you yet...but that does not mean I won’t. We are having a discussion, in which I think many great points have been brought up.

I am going spend some time reading through my Bible some more, praying about what I am doing and I will let everyone know what I come up with. I am open to the idea of quitting the blog. I can’t shut it down, but I could end my part of it. I am open to that if I feel God is telling me (through you all) to stop.

Johnpaul wrote: Andy, What am I supposed to go on then? I talked to God, talked to my pastors, talked to my family...and in the end feel ok about. I’m not sure why that isn’t good enough.

MOVE ON.  let the Spirit of God deal with things.  You may have talked to God, but the question is “did he answer you or did you answer yourself?” I have never had anyone leave a church or protest something, even in the most vial way and not say they didn’t pray first.

John Paul’s Friend said:  Jesus tells us that if we confront our brother in his sin and he still refuses, to speak about it to the WHOLE CHURCH. How does blogging about the sins of a church leadership (false doctrine) fail to follow scripture in this regard?

I don’t think whole church means the whole world, like a blog would do.  Doing it this way isn’t going before the “assembly” or the “Called out ones” which the word means.  If the church fails to react on this...then move on.

Hey JP,
I may not be right on this but you seem conflicted internally.  I add that your connection with the prayer chain is a bit of a stretch in my mind.  I do know that some prayer chains do and some do not.  However I read extensively the posts on your blog and see gossip all over the place.  The “can it be a place for gossip ship has sailed.  It is a place for gossip.  Your prolonging it only sets the table for more.  Your argument is that since a prayer chain can be it is okay if our blog is… Your argument is that since good and bad things happen at the church it is okay that good and bad things happen on our blog. 

Isn’t this the same kind of leadership flaw you see in the pastor?  You are duplicating on your blog some of the same stuff you fault the pastor for. 

Gossip is a sin.  It is wrong and to willingly and knowingly foster a place where it happens hurts people.  It is not an issue of if some good comes; it is an issue of whether or not gossip is a sin. 

Scrupe… How does gossip and sarcasm rescue someone from a ditch.  If I remember correctly the good Samaritan actually at his own expense helped the guy in the ditch.  He did not sit in secrecy, hiding behind a code name, blogging someone else’s transgressions.  He did not go around posting in the Jerusalem Chronicle that the priest was a fake and his theology was bad and…

A lot of the reasoning here in support for the blog can be lumped into a few categories

1) At least were not as bad as the pastor…
2) Some good still comes from this so it doesn’t matter what harm comes from it.

I have another question for all: Setting aside doctrinal issues, what is the difference between City Bible Church and City Business Chuch?

They meet in a building, we meet online.

They give sermons from a pulpit, we write posts.

and we both claim to be made up by a body of Christians.

Why then do you all feel comfortable making snap judgements about our “church” (online for the world to see)...regardless of how we act (read back through these comments...none of you care what CBC has done the issue is that it is none of our business) but it is not ok for us to talk about them? You explain.

I’m not upset and truely do appreciate your snap judgements, I just want to make you all think. Please leave religion and tradition out of your response.

Leonard, I’m glad to hear you shut down a prair chain for fostering gossip. And now I may be forced to expand on this thought a bit more.

We don’t (and shouldn’t) end everything because just because they are a source for gossip, right? Telephones for instance are probably the one single invention that create more gossip than nearly anything else...should we then, as Christians, destroy all phones? Sounds extreme right...but why do we allow them to exist? Because they do more good than bad? To fit in with our culture?

Lets look at another example...churches...your church, my church, any church (really it’s any group of people getting together at any time) all these things are avenues for gossip. It runs rampant throughout our churches, workplace, schools...but we still go to church, go to work, go to school...and we would like to say all these things are good. Correct? Again, you think these are extreme examples...they are, but they are for a point.

We all were born with a sin nature that will haunt us until Christ takes us home. Wherever you look there will be sin...should we shut down completely because of this? No.

Now, THIS DOES NOT IN ANY WAY EXCUSE THE SIN OF GOSSIP. When and where there is gossip it should be addressed (see matthew 18) and eliminated if possible. If someone were gossiping at church you would request that they stop (privately) you would not shut the church down.

Again, If we are all the Body of Christ...what is the difference between my Online Church and Your meet in a building church. Does the building make church? No. The people do. (Do I need to give a 13 week sermon series here on the Biblical mandate of a 10% tithe to get accepted around here?)

Should I do a better job of policing the gossip levels on my blog? Yes. Your comments have convicted me of that. I will try my best to do so. Have you given me reason to shut the blog down...not yet.

As for the call to Frank for repentance...I will have to defer to David Mackin...as he is the author of that particular post. There are many writers who have access to our blog for them to share their stories and opinions.

For the record, and maybe I should have said this earlier, I found many of the accusations to be petty, over the top, or just plain unnecessary. I agree with much of what you say and hope that David will be able to address your points at some time. I have requested that he join in this debate and he has informed me he might not have time to check things out until this weekend.

Johnpaul wrote:

Why then do you all feel comfortable making snap judgements about our “church” (online for the world to see)...regardless of how we act (read back through these comments...none of you care what CBC has done the issue is that it is none of our business) but it is not ok for us to talk about them? You explain.

We make those judgements because you have made them public.  You’re wrong....I personally do care about the things done wrong and problems with doctrine in churches.  Frankly that’s why I do what I do, and it’s a ministry of correcting and building up while coming along side of pastors and church leaders...not taking them apart on the net.

You asked if its not OK for you to talk about CBC?  Well..NO...it’s not.  It doesn’t matter what they have done...it really doesn’t.  If you have dealt with things bibically and have not gotten the results you desire, I will say it again, “move on and let God deal with things.” It’s never right to do wrong, just because someone is doing wrong.

However...that being said.  I read your posts, the comments left there as well as the comments you have left here on MMI, and I conclude that it doesn’t matter what anyone says to you...you’re going to just continue on doing what you’re doing.

I believe that those the spread false doctrine will answer to the Jesus, the head of the church and He will deal with them.  I also believe that that same Jesus will deal with those that sow discord among the brothers and sister.

OK...once and for all....I am done with this subject.