Congratuations on your decision. I am serious. As I indicated yesterday this is an issue that we in our tribe have been struggling with for decades. I know that it is a passionately personal issue for many people on both sides ofthis aisle. But really aren’t there other issues that require our attention?

Some denominations or groups are going to welcome women with open arms, others won’t give them the time of day. Others like my tribe tend wander in the middle, offically welcoming and practically struggling with barriers. If you are called you are called. if God has gifted you, serve, find the place where you can put those God given treasure to work for the kingdom. We are not going to change minds or structures, so dust of your shoes and go where you are welcome and show them the power of God’s mercy and grace in the work that you. In ministry there are always going to be groups that think you are wrong no matter what the issues. It just comes with the territory.

I just read over what I wrote. I sould like a debbie downer, but it is still true.

“Equality for women” is a debate that hasn’t really happened in earnest yet, within the church.  That’s why there is seething under the surface, on both sides.  It could be a debate on the order of that which was debated about circumcision in the first Jerusalem council in Acts.  Both sides in that debate were hot, too.  As the result of that, there was a parting-- Paul to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews.  Why didn’t they both go to the Jews or both to the Gentiles (and they did, in small part).  In the same way, Christians are doing just what they want.  Don’t want women in leadership? Then ban it in your church.  Want it? Then ordain them.  That’s the way it is resolving.  Sooner or later the ordained women will be noteable and dealt with as peers, in debates, writing books, etc.  Then the church will be forced to deal with them as peers, just as Saudi Arabia deals with Condoleeza Rice as a peer, even though in their own country she wouldn’t even be allowed to drive a car.

...Bernie

Interesting discussion in both posts.  I we have a female minister in our church.  She is the children’s pastor.  i think our church would say it was ok with women in the ministry, but anything beyond children’s minister they would not hire a female.  They might say they would, but I know in my heart they would not.
I guess the question, would be is God ok with it?  I think by examples in the Bible, not only is he ok with it, He wants it to happen.  So if God calls these women to ministry who are we to ask, are we ok with this?  If it is God approved, ordained, then what is the problem. 
The issue I think is still culture.  Let me first to be honest this is something I myself have to pray about.  Would I serve under a woman, Senior Pastor?  To be honest the opporunity has not presented itself, but someday could.  What would I do?  I like to think, if I felt she was called by God, and we could serve together, I would.  However, I have always had my S.P. as a mentor to me, and I rather have a male mentor rather than a female mentor for obvious reasons.
Just being honest

We cannot confuse “equality” with specific roles people play in ministry.  Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 12 that all parts are equal and important.  One of the traps we fall into in this issue is to assume someone’s role in a relationship or in ministry is about equality.  I am not superior to any woman anywhere, ever.  My position as a senior pastor is not superiority, it is simple a byproduct of calling and gifting.  Too often we say “equality” in addressing this issue and make the issue about a person’s intrinsic value, big mistake and hugely misguiding in how we resolve this issue. 

Secondly, I think we need to separate the issue of women in ministry from women as senior pastors.  I realize that senior pastor is also a ministry position but I think it is different from other positions in ministry in terms of responsibility and gifting.  To that end I would say without hesitation that a woman could hold any ministry position in the church (maybe not a men’s pastor) where ministry to God’s people must be done.  From executive to worship to kids to youth to outreach or anywhere in between, I believe women are gifted and able to lead and lead well in these areas. 

Finally women as senior pastors.  Has it been done?  Yes.  Has it been done well? Yes.  Do we have any illustrations of this in the Bible?  No.  We can site the importance and value of women all throughout scripture and we should do so often.  Esther, not a queen in Israel but Persia.  Not a leader of God’s people, nor a leader of people in the structure of Persia but really a beauty object.  Her position was more belittling to women than empowering since she basically won a beauty contest to become queen.  Her character is why God used her. 

Fast forward to the New Testament and you will find that no elders mentioned in the bible were women, no apostles were women, no church fathers were women.  Should this inform us as to something that God designed?  I think so.  Yes I know there were prominent women in the church but none with these leadership distinctions.  We will miss this either by resentment or by frustration if we think of this as an equality or talent issue.  It is not, it is simply a role and gifting issue. 

Finally, (sorry for the long post) my wife was in full time ministry for 11 years as a director of ministry areas with Youth For Christ.  She is an amazing leader, a gifted communicator, and qualified for many ministry positions within the Body of Christ based upon gifting and character.  I follow her leadership in many places in the church, but she does not see her role as less equal to me because I am the “senior Pastor” nor does she believe that women should be senior pastors.  My wife and I both believe that women should be ordained to pastoral ministry but not to senior pastor ministry.  My post is so long I will stop, but I invite help in sorting this out, as this position is not where I started (I grew up thinking and believing, no women in ministry ever) but where I have landed. I am not interested in debate but would love interaction.  Thanks

I guess I have a miscellaneous hodge-podge of comments to make here.  Todd, I have no issues with you posting the Timothy section of scripture, nor did I take issue with your comments about it.  If some of us women seem a little sensitive on this topic, please understand that years of hearing the spoken and unspoken message that our gifts are “lesser than” because we are women tends to make one a little defensive.  And, Kent, I have to agree with Wendi that the reason you are willing to dismiss this issue so easily is because you are not the one whose gifts and talents are being put into a nice, neat little box.  Leonard, I love the tone of your comments, but I have to respectfully disagree when you say that no women are cited as being elders, church fathers (mothers), or apostles. As Peter Hamm pointed out earlier, Junias is listed as being an apostle (although in some translations it’s translated as the male “Junio"), and there are many other women, such as Lydia, Pricilla, and others whom I feel would qualify for the elder or church mother titles.  Todd, I thank you for allowing the discussion to continue.

Nora

Wendi,
Do you think you might be a tad bit sensitive with Todd?  Just my opinion, it is ok certainly not to agree with me.  I think you might be going too much on the defense and I am not sure Todd has done anything to get you all up in arms like you are?  Maybe you could give him the benefit of the doubt.

Jade said: Wendi, Do you think you might be a tad bit sensitive with Todd?  Just my opinion, it is ok certainly not to agree with me.  I think you might be going too much on the defense and I am not sure Todd has done anything to get you all up in arms like you are?  Maybe you could give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, I know for sure that I am a tad bit sensitive on this issue, and that I need to give Todd the benefit of the doubt.  I’m sensitive because, as Nora pointed out, I’ve lived through “years of hearing the spoken and unspoken message that my gifts are ‘lesser than’ because I am a woman.” I can’t change the fact that my experiences shape my perceptions, even my perceptions of what others say and do.  Perception, as they say, is reality.  I believe that Todd, and the other guys in this forum, appreciate knowing if their comments are perceived by someone in a way other than they may have intended.  I think this because I think very highly of Todd.  He has demonstrated on this forum that he highly values balance, lively and respectful disagreement and disavows any kind of impolite comments or discussion.  However, I don’t think everyone on this forum cares to know how their comments are perceived.

By way of example, I appreciate Jade, your willingness to tell me that you perceived through my comments that I am “up in arms.” I’m really not, so your comment that you perceived I am helps me better frame my future posts.

Leonard, I too appreciate the tone of your comments.  I wonder, if you have issues still about women in authority over men, how you justify women in all the various pastoral roles (except SP).  Every lay person who serves “under” the leadership of such staff women are technically under her authority.  If a woman was an ExPastor, all the staff pastors would probably directly report to her.  Her role would be to hire, train, discipline, etc.  That’s pretty clearly authority.  What causes you to feel free (based on scripture) to grant this authority but not SP or elder?

Wendi

Wendi,

Sorry for my choice of words.  My saying the ‘ladies’ were most upset came more from my emails rather than the Grace Driscoll piece.  My apologies.

Todd

Perhaps one more clarifying comment. In my tribe there is no barrier to women serving in any of the other positions other than solo or senior pastor. It is on this ground that we are struggling. We have women in senior leadership roles in the denominatiojal structures and as superintendents (bishops). But it is in the senior pastor of signififcant churches (which is whole other issue - what is an insignificant church?) that is the greatest barrier. It is even now an issue over which someone may refused licensure or ordination. So it is in the solo or senuior postion that I am pointing to.

In my church we have 5 staff people and I am the lone man.

I love this discussion, really!!!  Thank you for facilitating it Todd. (And thank you for the apology, although unnecessary.  It is your living room we’re visiting after all. Just thought you’d want to know my perceptions).

Kent – I appreciate your understanding of my position, and I appreciate your position as well (how’s that for nice blogging manners?) It does indeed seem like a circular discussion without a solution.  At one time, feeling exactly as you do, I told my Ex Pastor that I really believed I should quit my job.  The “women’s issue” is not my passion or calling . . . equipping is.  I was sensing that people were not able to hear the message which WAS important to me because the messenger was a woman.  The last soap box I wanted to get on was the “women in ministry” soapbox.  His wise counsel was that, in our case, the message WAS the messenger.  In other words, as long as people were slotted into kingdom roles based on gender instead of giftedness, calling, passion . . . we’d not have owned the message about which I had such passion.  He was right of course.  But in the end, it turned out that I was also right, and the relationship ended badly and was very painful for me and the church.  I still believe, that a good part of the reason things ended so badly was our inability to talk about this, because most people couldn’t even articulate what they believe or why they believe as they do. 

We’d all be so much better off if we could hold to positions on disputable issues as Leonard does.  Phrases from Leonard like . . .

I grab MY VIEW of authority from my understanding of scripture in this light.

I BELIEVE that this also translates to the church today

MY UNDERSTANDING would be that . . .

and . . . while I disagree with this I also submit myself to their authority and hold myself open to the thought that I COULD BE WRONG. 

(emphasis added)

. . . . all words that are music to my ears. 

Contrast that with the posture of Grace Driscoll and others on yesterday’s thread . . . “the bible CLEARLY shows.”

I could certainly live and minister within a context like you describe Leonard, even though I disagree.  You are right, the bible uses male Greek pronouns and those we know (for sure) to have held elder positions were men.  But I can read this contextually.  In the first century exclusively male leadership was the cultural pattern, just as it was the pattern for women to cover their heads, but which of your wives wears a hat to church today (both restrictions are found within the same passage – 1 Cor. 11)?  And the word for mankind in both Hebrew and Greek scriptures is male – yet we can easily read this word as genderless. 

That said, I purport to be a “practical egalitarian” (I believe I’ve stated that on other MMI threads).  What I mean by this is that the gospel always trumps.  In Paul’s day, women in any kind of teaching or leadership role would have hindered the furtherance of the gospel, and so he placed limits.  In our day, in a world where gender has become (outside of the church) much of a non-issue, those same limits could (and I believe does) hinder the furtherance of the gospel (though watching the gospel advancement at Mars Hill betrays my statement).  However, I still do not think in our culture a woman SP would be as effective as a man.  And so, regardless of the freedom I believe women have in Christ to minister in the church in fully equal partnerships with men, the trump card of the gospel should cause them to submit their freedom in Christ to ultimate male leadership.  In response, men SP’s should be very intentional about creating an environment with genderless partnerships so that the gifts and calling of all people can be released to kingdom work.  Without intentionality, it just won’t happen.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks all for the great discussion.

Wendi

You can’t be a man and win with women when it comes to this issue. When it comes to qualifications for elders, it’s impossible for a woman to be the “husband of one wife”. Heck, if you look at it through Paul’s cultural eyes, a woman wasn’t the wife of a bunch of dudes the way a man in that culture may have had more than one wife. It doesn’t make sense to try and flip-flop the gender to make it fit modern or post-modern culture. Modern and pos-modern culture need men to lead. Ladies, don’t hassle a man for leading or using masculine terms the way scripture uses masculine terms. Let him lead. You’ll be happier if you don’t nag, correct, second guess, or constantly complain. Read what Solomon had to say about this in Proverbs a bunch of times.

Eldership being exclusive to men doesn’t make women less than equal to men. It makes them different. It doesn’t make women incapable, inferior, or less smart. Heck, I think women are generally smarter and harder working. But scripture tells men to lead. Help us lead.

I’m just really glad that gender is removed in the “here after”.

Like foreknowledge, predestination, and Election vs. Man’s will.........this discussion is not going away until then.

Dan, <<<<taking the easy way out! :>)