Wow.  Bernie disagreeing with me.  Go figure.

Bernie said, “These organizations put on a good front so they don’t look distracted, but I’d bet you’d be amazed with how it affected Skip’s relationships with his peers, for one example.  I think there’s a great deal going on “under the surface,” so to speak.”

“I bet you’d be amazed”
“I think there’s a great deal going on”

That’s just it, Bernie… you just don’t know.

And neither do I.

That’s my point.  It’s not Bernie’s job (or Garrett’s) to bring down Skip Heitzig.  (And please understand, that from all I’ve read, SH has been involved in what appears to be a lot of devisive leadership.)

It is ultimately Skip’s board to whom he is responsible.

(But Skip’s board is a bunch of yes men hand-picked by Skip)

True.  But that’s been the way it’s been for years now.  (which is a whole other subject).  If you can’t get anywhere with Skip’s board; then go to his authority in the CC movement.  If they will do nothing (and it appears that they have done nothing but support Skip); then there’s not much really that you can do.

Sure, you can start a blog to publically flog Skip and CC.  And I’m not saying that this is NEVER a good thing or a constructive thing.  It’s just not the way I would handle it.

If I’ve gone through the proper channels, then I feel I have resolve.

I can’t save the world’s problems; and if I do, it only will tend to take my eye off what I really need to be doing.

I can’t save all the children in Africa; provide drinking water to every person in Rwanda; stop abortion; RU486; child abuse; drunk drivers; John Haggee’s excessive salary; or Skip Heitzig’s abusive leadership.  Doesn’t mean that I don’t do what I can working through the proper channels; but public shunning doesn’t appear to me that it works.

Todd

Bernie—I’m in complete agreement.  People in positions of power are afraid of accountability, and the internet provides that accountability. 

DanielR— I appreciate your attempt to understand where someone like me is coming from.  I’m not talking about someone blogging to complain because the pastor didn’t shake his hand long enough, or put out tea instead of coffee.  The issues were either abuse, or doctrinal, or underhanded, or criminal.  Blogging was left to them as their only resort. 

That shroud of forced silence that Bernie speaks of, that the Catholic “leadership” had for so long, seems to have been passed on to the modern-day pastor.  It’s a scary thing, and I don’t want people I care about, abused by them, if they are abusing.

Todd—That’s where you and I differ in belief.  I believe it is my responsiblity as a Christian.  I don’t see any church or church “movement” as outside of Christianity.  I’m a member of THE church, and that makes it my business. 

Ann— Matthew 18 tells us how to work with the offending brother or sister.  The final step isn’t a desireable one, but it is there, and you can read it.  That’s the point I’m to, in the case of the situation I post about (which BTW isn’t CA and I don’t, at this point, want to name names, since the webmaster requested that we don’t.  I believe we can discuss the topic without using proper names of people and/or churches)

Garrett:  “People in positions of power are afraid of accountability, and the internet provides that accountability.”

But that’s the point that many here have been making Garrett:  Bibilically it’s not your place or the internet’s place to provide that accountability.  It’s the place of the leadership; read that Biblical leadership, that God has ordained for that local church.

I think you and I would both agree that accountability is that main problem here.  That’s how all these scandals happen anyway:  ego and lack of accountability.

That’s why I think it’s so important to use the Biblical route to resolve conflict and increase accountability.

And quite frankly, many times, local church leadership blows it.  Do I think the leadership of CA and CC blew it in regards to Skip?  Yes, actually I do.  But they were presented with the information; they were confronted with people who disagreed; and yet they made that decision to ultimately, in spite of everything, to bring Skip back.  They are the ones who are spiritually responsible.

They are spiritually responsible for the leadership of CA and they are responsible for the past, present and future damage their decision may bring about.

Be thankful that you’re not one of those people.  Maybe a better way would be to put your energy into being into that type of position so that your say actually means something.  Then your voice matters and may very well make a difference.

Most people, even in the midst of the worst church scandal would never consider taking out a full-page newspaper ad, or buying 100 :60 second radio commercials to try to move their pastor/elders to accountability.  That costs money.  They will, however, put up a free blog and email all their friends about it.

You see before blogs, people just got mad and left and told as many people as they could.  Now they can do that instantaneously, reaching people they don’t even know.

I guess I’m just one that says you have to, at some point, after you’ve worked through all the proper channels, just let let it go.  I have no problem leaving it in God’s hands; that’s where it’s belonged all along.

Todd

Garrett,

All of a sudden, I sense a defensive, almost sarcastic tone… no need… I’m not taking you on, I’m just saying that I think we differ on the way we would approach something.  It’s all good. 

I don’t feel called to take down John Haggee for instance.  Bernie does.  He feels responsible for that.  OK… go for it.

I’ve already mentioned that I have a problem with many of the types of places that you mention… Slice; Lighthouse; OldTruth; many of them are bitter sites determined to bring leaders down and ‘inform’ people of their evil ways. 

That’s just not my thing.

We had an instance here about Rick Warren where someone made accusations that weren’t true all because they were thinking the worst and believing what others had told them without doing due diligence.

Last time, from my perspective.  God has placed authority figures in each our our lives.  If I have a problem with Billy Graham, I think I should work through his structure.  Same if I have a problem with Hagee, Heitzig, or my own pastor. That’s where I feel my responsibility lies.  Beyond that, I just do not feel comfortable.

And I’m not saying that I’m not at all hypocritical here… I’m sure there are some times when I cross the line; and it’s a fine one to be sure.  When we talk about topics like this here at MMI it’s in a totally different context than at places like PP and the other local church related sites.  The purpose here is to learn and take steps so that we don’t go there as leaders.  We’re not in the business of refereeing church conflicts at the local level.  Again, if it were my wish, I wish that these things could be handled internally, by spiritual leaders who want to do right and just not protect their turf.

Hard to communicate my true feelings in writing on a blog.  I know Garrett, that we would probably agree on more than we disagreed with if we were able to sit down face to face.

Bottom line:  This hurts.  It hurts churches.  It hurts reputations.  It hurts committed Christians who have put their heart and soul into serving the church.  It hurts leadership; it hurt’s the reputation of Christ and the church; it’s just a terrible thing all the way around.  There has to be a better way… I wish.

Todd

Garrett,

you came to this blog it did not come to you.  You and Bernie are the only ones on this blog that see it as your duty to correct people outside of your own experience.  You are not a victim here, you are choosing to defend something that is at best iffy biblically.  Don’t put off on Todd or anyone else as though you are being attacked.  You are deeply wounded, okay we are sorry about that.  You have been attacked by pastors, none here.  Pastors are not afraid of accountability, what a reckless and silly statement.  Some are, but that is not a statement about pastors, it is a statement about people.  Blogs lack accountability, plain and simple.  People who use them are not accountable for misstatements.  A while back Bernie made misstatements about RW, but I have never heard him apologize, he simply moved his attack to another part of RW’s ministry and blamed RW’s people for giving bad information. 

You want pastors to be held accountable, but who holds angry hurt people spouting off on the WWW accountable?  I have not seen that at all.  You hold a double standard of accountability.

Todd—I’m sure we would agree with a lot more in person.  In person, we wouldn’t be limited in fellowship to discussions of Christian blogs.  I appreciate your kind words, and I apologize if I’m coming across as bitter.  I am taking on a lot of people here, it feels like

Ann—Even if they do seem somewhat more theology-based, yet the result is the same.  For example, since it was brought up, someone gets saved in Saddleback, comes to know the Lord, is serving in the church, finds the Spirit working through their lives to reach others.  And then here comes Dave Hunt or Jacob Prasch, for instance, and suddlenly flung in the new believer’s face is the accusation that Saddleback is an evil place, out of Christian truth, is Laodecia, etc ad nauseum.  Now, is that not just as bad as what the blogs are being accused of?  Is Rick Warren the founder of the Laodicean “church”?  Some think so.  I don’t believe that, but there they are, some saying just that. 

If Warren is guilty of that, then everyone should be warned.  I believe there is a right to say it, if they believe it.  Then I can read it, and decide.  That new believer, can read it, and decide.  Let them be challenged in their Christianity, for, Christianity is bigger than Saddleback, and nobody that would leave the Lord over Dave Hunt’s ramblings, was ever really with the Lord in my estimation, but again that’s debatable. 

Same with the blogs.  There are legitimate warnings that people need to know.  If they want to investigate it for themselves, good.  If they regard it as gossip and garbage, good.  But they have the right to say it.  Because, from what I’ve seen on most of the blogs, the issues were serious and dangerous.

Todd wrote:
“I don’t feel called to take down John Haggee for instance.  Bernie does.”

Wrong.

I want to see Pastor Hagee repent and make amends. It would be a good witness to others.  As it is, he is moving in the opposite direction, being less accountable.  Maybe he needs to spend some jail time in order to see the light, like my old friend Jim Bakker, who I supported at PTL.

Some of these big boys see each other getting away with it, so they continue… and will continue until they get busted.  But they won’t get busted, because they have too many supporters.  That’s why I’m trying to educate the public.  It’s a distraction to my main ministryl it’s not my main ministry… I probably spend less than 10% of my time and energy on Pastor Hagee’s scandal.  But I can’t shirk my responsibility once I found the info, as I feel others are doing.

...Bernie

Bernie,

It remains that you have made the Haggee situation a priority (although not the first) in your ministry, although you are not part of his congregation or a supporter of his. I’m not sure it is your responsibility, but maybe it is. I’ll grant you that.

However, there are many other issues of injustice on this planet that you (and I as well) “have info on” but don’t make a priority, such as starvation, poverty, and AIDS around the world, the plight of the Native American, or perhaps pornography or gambling.

But make no mistake about it, Bernie. You have chosen this fight, you have gone to it, it has not come to you. There are other very worthy, perhaps more worthy, causes for you to spend 10% of your ministry effort and energy on. But you chose this. So… I argue, it’s not your responsibility, it’s your choice.

Bless you brother!

Wendi—Again I can ask you the same question.  What would you do, if you discovered that I am right and you are wrong? 

And I don’t recall being hostile with virtually anyone here, but the tone of your posts comes across that way to me.  Are you achieving the goal you desired, by being hostile about all of this? 

And if you or someone else tells me that you’re not hostile, then we’re in the same situation as the blogs.  Some think one way, and others think another. 

My use of Matthew 18 is correct, as I approaced the pastor in question alone first, then with his elders, and then to the church.  And since you know nothing about the situation I’m speaking of (since I haven’t shared it with you), it’s surprising how quickly you made a judgment about me.  You know nothing about the situation, yet you feel the right to come here and tell me how wrong I am.  You’re doing what you accuse the blogs of, but at least on the blogs, they all have firsthand knowledge, experience, and fellowship with those in question.  You do not. 

And again, my example of the “discernment websites” that go around doing the punching bag routine on everyone, those don’t bother you, but this does?  And surely, if they did bother you, then you wouldn’t waste your time with me, as they are far bigger and have much greater reach than I. 

Perhaps my presence here is to instruct some who are against the blogs, that God is using them.  Did you consider that?  And I don’t believe that “going public” is crossing a biblical line.  You are incorrect by calling the blogs “going public”.  Most of the readers are Christians, and for the few that aren’t, they may only peruse it for fodder for their already anti-Christian stance.  Those in such a stance, aren’t made worse by the blogs.  All they have to do is attend any church for a short time, and the long line of sinners that attend (like me) will show them that no Christian is even remotely close to the level of perfection you’re expecting, considering how against these blogs you are. 

Nevertheless I came on here at a time when this was the hot button issue, at least that’s how it seems to me.  I don’t expect this to be my only contribution to the various website discussions, but it has been time consuming, and it hasn’t left me much opportunity to read anything else on here. 

I believe that the methods are biblical.  I also believe that the Lord Jesus will show me if they are not.  I don’t believe that you or Leonard are being used in that capacity, however.  There’s too much anger in your voice (and his) to ever be the Lord, seeing as I’m not guilty of the things exposed on the blogs.  Those things, which you know nothing about, are the cause of the blogs’ existences.

Wendi—You’re adding quite a bit of additional information to the text in Matthew 18, that isn’t there.  It doesn’t say that the elders have to agree with you.  It just says they have to be witness.  It also doesn’t say that the congregation has to agree. 

The breakdown in your interpretation is with a group of elders that are hirelings and puppets to the senior pastor.  But nowhere does the text say that they must agree, it only says that they must witness.  The agreement part was your addition. 

If someone is going to be warned about taking these matters to blogs, then you also have to be warned about teaching scripture, which is what it seems that you’re doing at this point.  The scripture also says, don’t let many of you be teachers, as they receive the greater condemnation. 

Nowhere does it say to “keep it within the walls of the church”.  In the days of the book of Acts, they met in houses, not church buildings.  Again, you added something that wasn’t there. 

You may find it to be prudent and/or “decent” to keep it within the confines of a building, but please don’t add to the scripture what isn’t there.  You’re teaching your opinion, not what the actual verses say.

Bernie:  “Maybe he (Haggee) needs to spend some jail time in order to see the light, like my old friend Jim Bakker”

Repent or jail time. 

Either way sounds like a ‘take down’ to me.  But that’s just me.

Todd

PS—and since someone did bring it up; quite a few of us ARE still waiting for your apology for getting the RW thing wrong a couple weeks ago.  Not an apology to us, but to Rick and PD.  Seriously.

Blogs aren’t in there but there’s plenty about gossip and slander - I think that’s my point!