Having watched the first half of “Gandhi” last night (and having a bit of the Bible) I’d be hard-pressed to suggest that physical violence is ever justified...certainly in a church context.  Matthew 18 would seem to apply in this situation, and I would hope that the church has documented how it will implement scriptural steps of discipline.  Unfortunately, my experience has been that people disgruntled with the leadership of a church are not likely to submit to discipline meted out by that same leadership, regardless of whether they agreed to that very process on becoming a member.

Biblically speaking violence is wrong.

But if we are honest, there are plenty of people who push us so far that we want to hit them. In this case, both sides are passionate about themselves being right; no one likes to be told they are subverting the Kingdom.

I think the problem is much deeper. When these things happen in a church, I tend to believe that they have a lack of vision about what the church should be. Or, they have a church structure that rejects accountability on all sides. 

The whole situation is sad, and, unfortunately, typical. Our entire culture has the mentality of “You can’t tell me what to do!” and when that shows up in the church members and leadership it is deadly to the church. It also makes a mockery of God’s Kingdom.

I’ve had a few, where the only thing I could do was get up and walk or punch out their lights.

I haven’t done any punching yet, but did they deserve it?  Yeah I think they probably did!

But then as grandma always said “Two wrongs don’t make a right”

When someone acts like a bible donkey we open a six pack of Balaam’s Bible donkey beat down.

21And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab.

22And God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

23And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.

24But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.

25And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall: and he smote her again.

26And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

27And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.

28And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

29And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.

30And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.

31Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

32And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

33And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.  Numbers 22:21-33KJV

The Bible provides for a way to handle church conflict and those who continually sew discord. They are visited, and if they don’t stop, they are visited again by some more people, and if they still don’t stop, they are asked to leave the church.

Pity it isn’t utilized more. Yet in most churches we are mostly asked “not to stoop to their level.” I say baloney. By not exercising the provision that is ours, we are held hostage by a handful of the loud and the cranky. They need to be confronted and there’s a biblical way to do that. Obviously Jesus knew there would be conflict so He gave us instruction on how to handle it.

Are we disobedient when we DON’T follow Matthew 18?

To answer the original question, when push comes to shove, I’ve never shoved. But I’ve sure wanted to.

When people of a church believe there is something “sinful” going on in the church they should address it with the leadership and try to challenge and in fact ENCOURAGE their leaders to make the necessary changes.

But this “sinful” behavior has somehow been confused with disagreements over dress, music, administrative styles, personality, and the list goes on and on. 

On these occasions, which can be easily determined by first asking what the Biblical issues are and see what the response is, the people of the congregation should accept what it is the leaders have determined is best.  Is that not the essence of Romans 13:1-3?  If people don’t accept the leadership that God has placed to be in authority then they are in fact rejecting God.  That’s scripture speaking.

Hi Camey!

I tried to answer your last email but my old email is down.  You cann email me at from now on.  Someone messed around with my account.

We had a great church party (pictures on the website in photo albums) with about 150 people coming on a Friday before Memorial Day weekend!  Cool.  Thank God it was a holiday Friday otherwise another 50-75 would have showed up and cost me more money!!!!!  :o)

How are you guys doing?

Phil,

Nothing is wrong with the song… That was my lame attempt at humor given what you had posted in regards to the article. Has it been THAT long?? (laugh, Phil. laugh)

Saw the pics… And yes, you should be thankful more peeps didn’t show up. Talk about a church body being supportive. That is always welcomed news! Even moreso… a couple’s marriage lasting that many years. Cause for a celebration indeed.

I’ll update you about our crazy lives via email.

Phil,

Oh.. I don’t come any where close to unleashing my full range of humor here. So, hey… Don’t let the fact that we were 16 and 14 when you guys got married say ANY thing about your age. Of course we’re going to be having our 18th anniversary in August. Young.... old..... How great is our God!

I know we’re sort of hijacking the thread but not really. For what your church is going thru is so much of what can bring out the best and worst in individuals. Especially individuals who claim to love God and only want to follow His will for their church. That’s where I think so many churches truly do get in trouble. It is never our church… It is always only HIS. That is why His name is the famous one (man, I’ve got to stop listening to Chris Tomlin while writing.) There will always be bleeding in one form or another because there are humans involved. Do we wish it weren’t so? Of course… But can you just imagine how little our faith would be if we were only relying upon ourselves and not the power of God. Only He can truly transform lives. Only He can truly bless with financial resources whether to sustain or in abundance.

Oh my.... There I go again. And Phil… It’s always a privilege to hear such testimony in regards to marriage. Somehow I think your wife may get more credit than you..... (Walks away whistling)

man - that whole thing just makes me soooo sick to my stomach - in the grand scheme of things who cares?

I am convinced that Satan is sitting back with a bucket of popcorn and a giant size diet coke (a dark prince has to watch his figure) and giving this thing five out of five stars - better than “Transformers” says Mephisto!

I have personally witnessed and been the butt of those antagonists that have resisted change for so many years that when someone finally led and promoted it without backing down to their threats, rumors, and gossip, got quite antagonistic ... and remain so today even though they left the church.

HK, I just want to gently prod you into taking into account other biblcial data which may lead others to be more forceful in their responses at times. 

First let’s look at who is thought of as a great Godly leader in the Bible - Nehemiah

1- See Nehemiah’s reaction when his naysayers threatened to attack his work

2- See Nehemiah’s threat to those who were attempting to sell goods on the Sabbath “Why do you spend the night by the wall?  If you do this again I will lay hands on you!”

3- See Nehemiah’s reaction to those who gave their children in marriage to non-Israelites “I rebuked them and called curses down on them.  I beat some of thye men and pulled out their hair”

Now let’s look at a great NT leader of the Bible - Paul

4- “I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world.” He then says that our weapons have divine power.  Then “And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.”

Now what about Jesus ...

5- Tell’s Peter to “Get behind me Satan”

6- Turns over the tables in the temple in anger

7- Rebukes the Pharisees (and seemingly looking for every opportunity to do so) calling them, amonsgt other things, “hypocrites”, “white washed tombs”, “sons of Hell”, “brood of vipers”, and calling their very salvation into question if not outright denying it!

All this to say ... if we would stop running from those who have controlled churches for so long maybe, just maybe, we could nip these things in the bud rather than experience church splits and other such horrible acts because we left discipline by the wayside in our socieity a long time ago - resulting in what we see in far too many churches today.

Phew ... got that off my chest! 

Hi HK:

Thanks for taking my comments in the spirit in which they were given.

For me to responde specifically to your particular situation would necessitate having more knowledge, much more knowledge, than I do.

However, as a generalization I believe it is safe to say that for the sake of God’s program being promoted in the church conflict needs to be dealt with rather than ignored and it needs to be dealt with scripturally.  God has given us much data to be led by in this area.

There was an old Lee Myles Transmission commercial that asked us to get our transmissions checked early before big problems occured.  The tag line was “Pay me Now or Pay me Later!”

Churches need to pay the price of promoting truth, and only authentic unity that is based on truth, which will exact a certain price.  However, the price of not dealing with these things will be much larger later on (even if it may be some other leaders who has to deal with it.)

Last, when it comes to conflict in God’s church I would like to see any examples where leadership (or Jesus) just swept the complaints and/or controversies “under the rug.” You know we can find story after story where these issues were dealt with straight on and in love.

HK,

Let me start by saying I am sorry that you guys are experiencing such turmoil.  However, one comment you said struck me as a problem.

You said (and I believe in your previous post as well so it is significant) “Do I continue praying and have faith that God is going to do something?”

That questions assumes that by people leaving, stop giving their tithes, gossiping, and sending anonymous letters around the church that God isn’t working!  That is an assumption that I don’t think you ought to make!

Can I assume that this brouhaha has started because of certain changes to the “form” of the church?  I bet you’ll say something like “the word is being preached and we’re doint what God has called us to do” so what is happening?

If my assumptions are even remotely close to your reality have you ever considered that people have finally been confronted with truth (yes even longstanding church members) and have decided to act as Jesus said the Pharisees did in Mark “your holding onto the traditions of men and letting go of the Word of God!” Whoa ...

We hear this verse that says “God’s word never comes back void and always does what it is meant to do” and think that once God’s word is preached and even lived out that people should all “get it.” Really?  What world is that?  Tell me ... I want to visit!  lol

Seriously, maybe God is working right where you are.  Imagine living the live of Jeremiah, Ezekial, Paul, or Jesus?  Maybe in some small way you are.

Didn’t Jesus tell us that when you do things on His account that we’ll experience persecution?  Why do we feel that this is only from non-believers without also including those in our church pews?  Where did Jesus experiecne the most persecution ... BY FAR?  In the “church” or out of it?

Actually in your frustration and questions I believe you already know the answer as to what to do.  Isn’t that true to some degree?

My advice ... if I would approve of the direction of your church ... hold fast to truth, hold fast to love, and remember it’s God who does the final judging and is the only approval we need.

Hope that helps somewhat.