We Christians are far too often much more interested in being right than in being loving.

Maybe when Alcoholics start doing parades and taking over Disney World for a week the Church will realize it needs to be more sensitive to them too! We are just too preachy when it comes to drunkenness!

Look, you can’t just bend the Gospel around what is or isn’t culturally acceptable. Preach against all sin and call all people to repentance… Is that going to make Christianity the darling of our culture? Of course not!

If people don’t turn from their sin it doesn’t matter how much we “love” them. This is pearl casting and swine to be sure.

Well, fishon, perhaps there is a big difference between the way Fred Phelps communicates it and the way I do.

I like to think so, at least.

Brian.

1)I’m sorry about the loss of your relative.

2) I never said that homosexuals are beyond God’s Grace.

3) As far as approaching homosexuals with love and grace. I have been in this position recently. The love and grace my friend wanted was not a BIBLICAL Love and Grace. It was love me and “LEAVE me be” as a lesbian and have the grace to understand that your theology is “old fashioned” or as she stated bigoted. This person is a Christian Missionary.

4) An unregenerate soul is incapable of recieving love by hearing God’s Word from God’s people unless the Holy Spirit is working in that person’s heart. So of course a practicing homosexual (or heterosexual adulterer for that matter) isn’t going to “feel the love”. That is unless you present them the idolatry of a false Gospel.

There you go.

Again, I’m sorry for your loss and know that puts you in a valley shadows at the moment. God is still God, he will always be found exclusively in his Word. The two are inseperable.

Jud,

I think you and I are actually in agreement, particularly in points 3 & 4.

I have never suggested that love and grace should include acceptance of sin as in point 3.  And I have seen nothing in the article or other posts that suggests that. 

Obviously, we can accepting of people without accepting their sin.  If my daughter decided to start taking drugs, I would still love and accept her while rejecting her drug use.  I would also do all I could to help her overcome it.

My point is that we need to be redemptive in how we approach sinners.  God can overcome all barriers, yet so often we approach homosexuality as a “there’s no hope for them, therefore, let’s just show them God’s wrath and condemnation.”

I would grant that this may not be how people actually feel, but it is what is communicated in many cases.

I remember listening to a radio program years ago.  The caller was a homosexual, and wanted to know why a man loving a man was different than a man loving a woman.

The response was (paraphrased), “The plumbing, Leo!  God made you to love a woman, and he created you with the plumbing for that.”

Then he continued: “God calls what you do ‘sin.’ But Jesus died for that sin.” And for the next 90 minutes, an uncompromising dialog happened, resulting in Leo coming to Christ.

God had obviously been working in this guy’s life for a while.  He had come to the point where he was listening to this Christian radio show, even though the host was adamant in his view that homosexual behavior is a sin.

What I want to point out is that Leo would have rejected Fred Phelps and his ilk while accepting the message this guy brought.

At the most basic level, the message was the same: this is sin.  Turn from it and come to Christ.

But the way that message is presented is like night and day: “Go to hell because God hates you” vs. “Come to Christ for forgiveness and healing from this.  We will do all we can to help you overcome this.”

Brian L.

Bruce , I get what you are saying but I assumed we were discussing homosexuals as people actively living the lifestyle, as my friend in fact is. When you say celibate do you mean both in action and thought?

Brian, I think we agree too. I’m not talking about lynching someone because they practice any sin as a habit either. At some point though you present the truth of the Gospel and people either surrender or they don’t. As far as people being in the Church professing Faith in Christ and openly, flauntingly living in the habit of Sin the Church must go the route of 1 Corinthians 5. This is something the Church is horribly inconsistent with. I’ve only seen it happen once and that was to do with heterosexual adultery.

I personally believe that this is a squeeky wheel getting the grease scenario. The Gay community has aggressively made the tolerance of their lifestyle a cultural norm. Much of the Church being apostate as it is, has coward to the idea that as a perception “we” treat homosexuality differently than any other sin. And if “we” are intolerant (heaven forbid) we could lose our “influence” (heaven, again, forbid.

So we sacrifice TRUTH on the alter of tolerance… then call unity.

I think some of you that have commented on this article have never met Johnny Hunt or heard him preach - I have!.  He does not take a weak stand on sin and it’s disastrous consequences.  If you know Johnny you would understand these comments in a whole different light.

Jud,

I won’t bite on your McClaren slam, sorry

It is the actual act that is sin. While certainly every act of sin begins in the mind it becomes actual sin when we do what we think.

Very few days go by, as a man , when my mind isn’t drawn away to something sexually sinful. We live in a sexually charged society. I must learn to control my thoughts. Every one of us faces this battle.

At the very least I am saying that there are some men and women who are attracted to the same sex. We can debate the “why” of it for years but the bottom line is........it is so. It is not the inclination or thought that is the sin. It is the act that is the sin.

Having said that...........I do think the modern arguments made about the Bible prohibitions against homosexuality being one of promiscuity have merit. My mind is not made up. (and please spare me (anyone) the revisionist argument) I am willing to listen. I am willing to study.

The Evangelical Church is, in many places, homophobic. (and divorce phobic) We ofter no answers, just condemnation. No hope, just hell.

Yesterday I attended a service where the preacher preached about the Church reaching out to those in need, those who are hurting. (Isa 61) Great sermon. Then he completely undid it by having an altar call that basically said just pray this prayer and bingo all your problems are fixed. I said “BS, in Jesus name of course”

Yes Jesus is the answer BUT are we willing to really enter into the lives of those who have sexual issues? I mean really enter in? Let’s face it .....I have not been to many Churches that were open enough to tolerate a man saying “I have sexual attractions to men.” I come from the school that we beat the living______out of those kind of guys.” and a lot of Christians have been trained in that same school.

30 years ago in my first pastoral position. (Todd will know the place) I worked with a pastor who literally interrogated couples planning to get married about their sexual behavior. Not a virgin...no white dress. No normal Church wedding. Terrible abuse.  I am not sure Evangelicalism is much different today.

A study was done of Church Birth and Marriage records in England in the 17th-1`8th century. Remember this was the era of the Puritans and Reformers. For all their law preaching........over 60% of those married were pregnant at the time of marriage. (and I don’t have a link but I do remember the stat)

Not much has changed.

The Bible certainly addresses sexuality. And modern Evangelicals tend to be preoccupied with it.

Bruce

Hey y’all,

We’ve had the discussion on homosexuality here before.  We don’t really need to go down that road. 

I just liked the quote because many times we say that we love people and hate the sin; all the time we’re trying to punch the sinner in the throat.  Luckily, we miss their throat because we’re blinded by the log in our eye.

I think that was really his point.

Todd

Amen Fishon!

A Few observations:  Dr. Hunts suggestion was that we love the homosexual and hate OUR sin.  I think this was missed in most of the posts.  It strikes right through me because of my tendency to not hate all my sin, just the ones I get caught for ar the ones that ge me in trouble.  the churches ability to hat other peoples sins while ignoring their own is high.

Another observation is that we return the favor of misrepresenting the homosexual.  Often the media as it relates to Christians and homosexuals is that we are all homophobic jerks who are filled with hate and judgment.  We know the truth of this statement but overall this is not the majority of Christian people or Christian leaders I know.  Most of us are not hateful, just indifferent, and that might be worse than being hatful, but easier for us to swallow since were not being Fred Phelps.  Our sin against homosexuals is much more heinous that hate.  We paint most all gay people as radical, but the truth is that there are countless numbers of people who are not activists, just people trapped in a lifestyle that is slowly destroying them.  Many teens are in huge confusion right now over this issue, especially teen girls who are often encouraged to experiment.  We could love them couldn’t we?  Or the young guy who suffered at the hand of an abuser or dominant parent to the degree he feels safer and drawn to people of the same sex.  We cold love them couldn’t we? 

What keeps us from knowing who these people are and what keeps them from seeking us out is not the Fred Phelps of the world but our own indifference to hurting people as a whole.

Another observation is that “Jesus instructed us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us.” So in that light I don’t think protesting a “Gay Pride Parade” is the answer but showing up with free waters and sodas might be the answer.  Getting some of your friends together to pray while a parade is going on might be the answer.  Finding a doctor to give free HIV tests could be the answer or have your church pay for the first 100 tests could be the answer, or free food for people…

I did not post on this yesterday because I was struck by my own “not hating my OWN sin.” My words are not pointed at anyone but myself.

Jud,

Does that mean we shouldn’t try to proclaim God’s truth with excellence? Our best seems to matter to God, doesn’t it?

For instance, there were a couple guys named Bezalel and Oholiab who were such good craftsman that they got their names in the Bible in Exodus. I wonder if they didn’t care about the quality of their work if their names would be in there.

Why can’t I have both. The power of God combined with my excellent use of the gifts he has given me?

Leonard wrote:
“So in that light I don’t think protesting a “Gay Pride Parade” is the answer but showing up with free waters and sodas might be the answer.”
--------I am suspecting you are refering to my pointing out Portland’s gay pride parada. Go back and see if I said one word about protesting. You won’t find one.

What you have just done is assign something to me that I did not say or intend. That is no different than the News Media painting we who would call practicing homosexuality as sin, as being full of hate. Assumptions!
fishon