This discussion is long but I think it’s worth the bother.  We so often think that believers, and especially leaders, don’t deal with sin.  I’m trusting that God will use this to purify his church.  I happened to be speaking on “Blessed are the merciful” yesterday and it was a great chance to bring a current event right into the sermon to illustrate how mercy works.  My blog gives the seven points I used to discuss “How to Restore the Fallen” if you would find that helpful. I’d be interested what others think about the restoration process.

Bernie said “Maybe great men don’t really fall.  Maybe it is the fakers and pretenders that fall.”

Great men, even men after God’s own heart, sometimes fall.  King David was not a pretender.

Please realize that while many will consider only the issue of great men who fail, the real issue has to do with the integrity of spiritual leadership.  As individuals, regardless of denomination or gender, we are challenged to find a way to choose life in such a way that we are complete - spiritually, physically, emotionally, intelletually.  To love God with all we are - heart, body, mind, and soul becomes particularly challenging when we ‘put all our eggs into one basket’.  I have gratefully heard echo throughout my ministry reminders from Dr. Archibald Hart (Fuller) as he spoke of the emotional hazards of ministry—particularly the emotinal hazards of success.

JHPW said:

“Great men, even men after God’s own heart, sometimes fall.  King David was not a pretender. “

David didn’t get into trouble until he was so conceited that he felt he didn’t need to go to battle like the other kings but rather that his underlings could do it.

It was the time for kings to go to battle and he stayed home and got into trouble.

No doubt that David saw himself better than the average king.

I just finished reading Wayde’s book last night. (sorry Todd- I know we were supposed to go through it together) I know personally that if you share with your leaders in most settings that it will often lead to your demise, not growth. I think it all begins with servant leadership. When you serve in a setting of servant leaders you don’t have all the problems associated with serving people who are self-serving leaders. I am thrilled to serve with servant leaders and it has aided my growth and helped protect me more than I could have ever imagined.

I’m not saying that Ted was a self-serving leader, especially since I do not know him. In Goodall’s book the first thing he mentions (as I remember it) was the fact that a leader is in trouble when he is arrogant. He begins to see himself as more than he really is which then leads to a sense of entitlement. Often he is burned out, tired, and emotionally, spiritually and physically worn out. This is when he is most vulnerable.

Servant leaders know that it is"not about me.” They know whose they are - the Lord’s. They serve an audience of One. They do not feel entitled to anything: perks, corner office, etc. They refuse to believe their own press. For me, it’s all about servant leadership.

Ricky,
The point I was trying to make was that a moral failure does not indicate that you were just a pretender, never really a man of God in the first place, as Bernie suggested.  The fact that David was ‘conceited’ as you stated in your post and did not go to battle when he was supposed to, doesn’t change anything.  Surely you’re not arguing that David was never a man of God.

Ronald -
Way to go, gutsy. honest and right on. I am sorry those who stand in judgment have extended grace and care.

Ronald,

You said:
“The denominational pharasiess have not done a good job of coming alongside my family or the local church and I am greatly saddended. I do not know that my future holds except my Lord”

While I hope you continue to heal your life and your relationships, it is interesting though that you are quick to kick others; i.e. those “denominational Pharisees” for their “lack of grace.” I would think that you might have some empathy and grace for their “sins” as you seem to have for ministers who sin like you did?  Bottom line Ronald, while these denominational leaders might not be doing all they can, still this is your mess my friend and it is really your job to clean it up, not the denominations.  IMHO

My prayers are with you and yours,
Pastor Al

Bernie, Was King David a “faker”?

Bondservant says:
“Bernie, Was King David a “faker”?”

I’d say to try to get some examples from the New Testament.  It’s the new light.  The Old Testament is all shadow.  No need for bloody sacrifices now that Christ offered himself as the last.  Look for words from Jesus.  What did Jesus say? What did the Apostles write? That’s the key. 

They took sin much more seriously than most of the posters on this board.  Consider:

Matthew 5:13
“Salt and Light”
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

Ted lost his saltiness, so he’s being trampled right now.  I believe it is possible that he can be restored, but as he himself said, he’s a liar and deceiver, so he has a lot of repentance to do.  “Repent” means to turn around 180 degrees… change of heart and mind.  It’s up to him if he wants to do it.  No one can do it for him, no matter how many “best wishes” he has going for him.  He has made a mockery of the Christian faith, kind of like how the Jews at one time made a mockery of God’s name:

Ezekiel 36:21-23
21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

Bernie writes [I’d say to try to get some examples from the New Testament.]

Okay, how about Peter denying his Lord AND being restored, how about Peter being hypocritical about who he’d eat with, and Paul opposing him to his face in correction. How about nearly ALL the apostles abandoning Jesus when he went to Golgotha.

Especially in the first case, Peter was a chosen leader of what would be the church. he failed MIGHTILY, just as bad as Judas perhaps, and yet Christ restores him.

BTW, I totally disagree with the Old Testament being “merely shadow”. The New Testament is very weak without it. But that’s no doubt a different discussion.

Thank you for your reply, Bernie.  I agree there are no shortcuts.  Repentance must be sincere.  I don’t think it is right to preempt the DISCIPLINE of God, because if we do that we cut short the process and can cause the one in need of restoration to be “restored” falsely. I think we need to make a clear distinction between discipline and judgement, however.  When we look for judgement, it is clear that we ourselves should fear. God will discipline or judge the man who sins in heart and outwardly appears strong, just as he disciplines or judges the man who sins outwardly and doesn’t make pretenses.  So, our first order of business is to look inward, then when we have dealt with our own sin, we will be in a place to help others with theirs..........
We must be careful not to rejoice in the discipline or judgement of others,except that we should be glad that God is cleaning up a fellow believer in order that he or she will not be condemned with the world. 1 Cor 11:32 ...............
As far as a NT example, Peter is a good one, and so is the man who Paul referred to in 2 Cor. 2.  It may be the same man he wrote about in 1 Cor. 5, who had his father’s wife.  If not him, then someone sinning in a very vile way for sure. Paul states in 2 cor.2:4 that he wrote previously with MANY TEARS.  Apparently, the sin he was disciplining was severe enough to cause Paul to instruct the entire assembly to withdraw from the man who sinned, in order to cause him to feel pain.  But Paul did not rejoice in this.  We should not cut short the work of God in discipline, but God forbid that we enjoy it!  Paul instructed them that they should now receive back the repentant one, and restore him.  I hope this happens with brother Ted. I hope his friends do not comfort him so much that he fails to cleanse his heart.  And I hope that if he truly repents, he will not be swallowed up by excessive sorrow, because of the condemnation of others.  May he (or any leader) never be worshipped again, but may he not be cast off as refuse by the church.  We should pray that those involved in his discipline would be led by the Spirit in these things.  And we should cry for Ted, for his family, and for those who put too much trust in a man.

Bernie said “… but as he himself said, he’s a liar and deceiver, so he has a lot of repentance to do.  ...He has made a mockery of the Christian faith, kind of like how the Jews at one time made a mockery of God’s name.”

I find it hard to agree with this, no offense to Bernie.  When Ted called himself a liar and deceiver, he was admitting to his mistakes.  It takes a strong man to do that, especially in this case.  He stepped down from his position.  God knows his heart...we don’t.  We can’t make judgements or assumptions...and it’s not our place to.  We are called to love and help those in need, and yet even some of the Christian faith are “bashing” Ted.  If a man’s heart is right, and he asks for forgiveness, he doesn’t have to “do a lot of repenting.” God forgives him then and there.  No man has to beg God for forgiveness...it’s there ready, if we are willing to ask for it.

Also, I don’t believe Ted, or any Christian leader to genuinely falls, makes a mockery of the Christian faith.  This situation proved that we are all human, we are fallible, and no one is above sin.  Yes, he should dealt with it until his “dark issues” died and he was able to move forward.  But it’s not always that easy.  I am the daughter of a pastor and I know what it’s like to want help but feel like you can’t get it.  A pastor is held to a higher standard, and so is his family.  I would think to myself, as I struggled with certain issues, that “you are a pastor’s daughter, you are supposed to be above this! Get it together!!!” Because that’s how some made me feel...all eyes are on the pastors family...the congregation sees what they do, how they act in situations, etc etc.  It’s not that I thought I was above help, but felt that I would disappoint those around me that looked up to me.  These are hard feelings to deal with.  All in all, his salvation is between him and God.  All we should be doing is praying for him and his family...that he makes the conscious decision to change and walk away from all he was involved with and begin the process of restoring his faith and family.  We don’t need to be concerned with anything else dealing with Ted Haggard.  He is still a great man that fell, and is on his way to get back up to where he needs to be.

As for the title of the book “Why Great Men Fall” ... it appears some are focusing way too much on the title.  Don’t worry about who is considered great or not, or if you don’t think anyone is.  The point and message of the book is about men, whether of Christian faith or in the world, who have fallen and how we can avoid the same roads that some of the men in this world have taken.  Read the book before you try to analyze it.