I’m with Derek! In my humble opinion, Hybels is one of the best leaders this century has seen - He is just a man, but he is a man who is trying, like the rest of us, to listen closely to God and follow His direction. It takes someone very special to lead a congregation of 25,000 and lead over 12,000 WCA churches all over the world. Willow hasn’t failed, what they’ve done so far hasn’t been a big mistake and these changes just solidify the fact that Willow isn’t afraid to step out of the traditional model and take some risks. It was a risk for Willow to do the “Reveal” study in the first place. I don’t care how big or small your church is - if people are encountering Jesus, then the church is being the church.

It is great to hear that Willow Creek is finally going back to doing what they should have been doing in the first place in their services.  Yet the problem that remains is that they did not reach this by reading the Bible and following what Scripture teaches, but having gone through a survey format once more. 

When will they learn that the way they should do things is according to what God says they should do, and not through group consensus?  I imagine that if they had a survey where the results told them that they wanted people to sing the Canadian National Anthem at the beginning of each service, they would have done it, too.

--
CS

CS,

My comment: This move is not about Willow becoming more biblical as Willow-haters would assume. It is about Willow becoming more effective. was for you buddy.

I anticipate there would be somebody who would say finally they are “doing what they Bible says.” I know we will disagree on this, but I would say Willow is and has always been trying to do what the Bible says.

Derek

Wow, CS,

I watch your posts every week, and while there are a few times that I don’t hear bitterness, I hear it enough not to be surprised when you say something as judgmental and pious as…

“When will they learn that the way they should do things is according to what God says they should do, and not through group consensus?”

I will admit that I have never liked “seeker sensitive” services. When they became a larger strategy of the church, I had just become a believer. I always felt that if I went to church, I expected spiritual stuff, I just didn’t want to hear about a God that was angry and wanted to kill me or change me. (eternally speaking of course)

The problem has been not sensitivity, but paranoia. Seeker sensitive services have been paranoid that anything resembling church or God will turn the unchurched off. I don’t think that is the case, and so I am glad to see them end the “seeker sensitive” services.

However…

CS, I have been in a number of churches that live “solo scriptura” (all information and knowledge we need is scripture alone) as you have suggested. These churches are in a state of stagnancy and atrophy. They loose more and more influence in the culture, while producing believers that care less and less for people who do not know Christ. I know that seems a harsh statement, and on the surface is a gross generalization, but let me explain what I mean.

The statement made about or to non-believers when presenting the gospel has everything to do with hell, and the damnation they are headed for and nothing of the love God has for them and the desire to share eternity in relationship with them.

I will not assume whether or not you are a part of a church like this or if you approach the un-churched in that way, but I will say this.

That you are so willing to assume that reaching so many people with the gospel as Willow Creek has is not what they should have been doing in the first place, IMHO, is troubling at the least.  I suggest you ask what Jesus really values. I am sure you are aware that He died for the sins of the world. What I think you might be forgetting is that the church needs to be about that work.

Unfortunately, a lot of churches have made growing the higher priority. While I believe the growth of the saints is vital to the church, so is the addition of those who did not believe, and now do.

Don’t devalue such a fervent effort for the gospel. It may just be that Jesus is pleased by that kind of heart.

-E

Everyone:

I’d like to address the comments concerning my “negativity” on this topic.

In hearing that Willow pretty much put to, “death of the seeker sensitive service format they pioneered years ago,” I was intrigued in hearing this.  It sounded like they had turned a new leaf, in light of how they were going to take formerly seeker-sensitive services and pack them, “with worship music, scripture, and more challenging Bible teaching, led by Bill Hybels the majority of the weeks.” This was good stuff.

Previously, the model of Willow Creek, according to Time Magazine, was established by going door-to-door with the unsaved and asking them what they wanted in a church.  This survey was what they used as a basis, and then, they delivered it.  And it didn’t produce mature Christians.  It produced people who liked the idea of church and got their feet wet in it, but who wouldn’t dive deeper.  Many of these people were still unsaved; this was all admitted in the Reveal survey.

I always believed this model of church was wrong because (1) we have no evidence, command, or direction of churches having taken this position of church by survey in the Bible or in most of church history, and (2) the primary purpose of worship is not for evangelism to the unsaved.  We are commanded to preach the Gospel (even those parts we don’t like hearing such as Hell) to reach the lost and make disciples.  And worship, as discussed on other threads, is for the glorification of God, through communion and fellowship, the reading and teaching of God’s Word, and singing in praise, all by believers.

So, when I heard that they changed their format to match more of the latter than using their seeker-sensitive model, I was genuinely happy.  But then I learned that this decision wasn’t to match how the Bible describes the gathering of the saints, but because a survey said they should do so.  And, so, it appears, nothing has changed in that avenue.

I admit, I may have gone overboard with the whole “Canadian National Anthem” remark, but it’s not “negative” to say that something is wrong when it legitimately is.  And, in this case, I fault them for letting surveys be their guides. 

They have a great heart to reach the lost; let’s help them do it like the Apostles would have.

--
CS

CS writes

[And it didn’t produce mature Christians.] I dispute that conclusion… You ever met some of these Willow people? WOW! Dedicated, loving, Christlike people… People who act like Jesus… pretty mature, imho…

Also [They said they were wrong about what made people mature.] Nope. Not what they said.

I think you ought to maybe spend some time reading the REVEAL book if you haven’t already. It doesn’t say what I think you think it says.

We also have no biblical evidence that that the early church used centuries-old melodies, in fact, we know that they indeed used new hymns, just-written ones, some of which became scripture.

We have no biblical evidence of expository preaching, really, either. We know Jesus preached topically, and he focused on behavior a LOT and how we should live. Paul seemed to preach topically, too, responsive to the “needs” of his hearers, even quoting pagan philosophers if that’s what it took…

We have no biblical evidence for a lot of what we do in church, except that we are supposed to make disciples and love our neighbor. Willow is good, imho, at both of those things. Seems biblical to me.

A mature Christian is not one who knows a lot of stuff, it is one who acts a lot like Jesus and loves his neighbor and makes disciples. He also said “follow me”, not “study me”.

CS you stated...Looking through the Book of Acts, in light of this story, they went out into the people and shared the Gospel.  They did not bring the lost into the fold of the church as a means of evangelism.

That is simply a conclusion from silence CS.  you have very few instances of people going out unless they were sent missionaries.  What you have is people coming daily and being added to the church by God.  We do not read of people going door to door, sitting in coffee shops, having people come to the local concert where the gospel will be explained after a concert.  What we have is people finding God and becoming contagious.  We have the church growing and in growing becoming known and contagious.  since we do not have that many church services recorded for our study we cannot know if they brought in un-believers to hear peter or John tell again the story of Jesus. 

Should we heal beggars outside the church, that is how they did it.  Should we wait for a sheet to come down from heaven with a special message from God?  That is how they did it.  Should we wait till we are miraculously swept away in front of a guy reading his bible on a chariot?  Should we find believers meeting at a river and tell them the gospel?  I know lets go to a synagogue first like Paul did.  How about let’s wait till fiery tongues fall and then we can go speak?  Should we call down the judgment of God on people who lie and see how that makes the place shake? 

The problem with your thinking here is that it is not biblical thinking but rather thinking about biblical stories.  You are taking a description of what happened and making it a prescription for what should happen. 

Willow was passionate about reaching people outside the walls of the church… sounds like the book of Acts to me.  Willow was ready to speak the Gospel in their language… sounds like the book of Acts to me.  Willow was committed to helping people discover the truth of the bible and find their gifts… Sounds like the book of Acts to me.  Willow is keeping in step with changing culture and how people are changing… sounds like the book of Acts to me. 

As for the primary ideology being wrong, people do seek to fill the void create by the absence of God.  People are constantly seeking to cover their sin.  People are seeking significance.  People are seeking hope.  To assume Willows philosophy is against Romans 3 again shows how little you know about Willow. 

I know personally people who seek God, being drawn by the Holy Spirit.  Why assume that drawing is outside of the understanding of Willow.  Some of those people have been drawn in their living room and found their way to a church.  Others are curious and in their curiosity they are drawn by the Holy Spirit.  Some people have life changes and get drawn.  These people seek God and that seeking is not contrary to Romans 3.  You have to assume Willow works outside of the direction and power of the Holy Spirit to assume that the word seeker means something contrary to Romans 3.  That my brother is not an assumption that their ministry, fruit and willingness to grow and adjust with time indicates.

Leonard:

“CS, if you are going to use Romans 3 like you do then you also have to say we all shed blood, we all are poisonous and so on and so on.  I simply think you miss the point of romans 3.”

How would you exegete the latter half of Romans 3 where it says, specifically, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God?”

“As for the primary ideology being wrong, people do seek to fill the void create by the absence of God.”

What verse says that?

--
CS

On the issue of unbelievers in public worship, I think we can see both biblical and historical records where the church was aware of unbelievers in connection to the worship service. 
N.R. Needham in 2000 Years of Christ’s Power describes a time when unbelievers were welcomed to attend worship gatherings, but then asked to leave during the time of communion.

Only the baptized where allowed to receive communion and Needham indicates that there was a time when they were allowed to attend the prayers and reading of the Scriptures.
(http://www.amazon.com/000-Years-Christs-Power-Fathers/dp/0946462496)

Also Paul deals with unbelievers in public worship in 1 Corinthians 14. He tells them that if everyone is speaking in tongues and an unbeliever comes in “will they not say that you are out of your mind?”

This does not necessarily give us biblical or historical precedence for creating a worship service for unbelievers, but it at least tells us that Christians have been aware (sensitive?) of unbelievers in Christian worship.

Finally, conducting surveys has been practiced by missionaries for decades in the third world. Missionaries call it “soil testing.” Why not do it in US churches? His Holiness Rick Warren did it when he started Saddleback.

Derek

CS –

Why do you participate in this blog?  You have made it clear that you find only fault with the type of churches Todd shares about here.  You are continually in an argument with us because the people many of us admire you have problems with.  We don’t always agree with one another or the people in the story, but you can’t just disagree, you have to question whether they are even Christian, call them unbiblical or heretical. 

Can you point us to even one MMI thread in the past few months that helped you, that you found informative and valuable?  Can you list some people whose ministry Todd has commented on that you admire? 

Your arguments about what is “unbiblical” about Willow are ridiculous, as are your efforts to make some kind of biblical case that human beings cannot seek after God as the answer to their unanswered questions. 

And they will seek my face;
in their misery they will earnestly seek me.” Hos 5:15

6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.  Is 55:6

17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me. Pro 8:17

At the end of the day, why on earth does it matter to our work whether God has drawn someone or they sought Him?  Our job is to go after the lost.  When the Lord sees fit to intersect my life with the life of someone with a tender heart, I don’t give one thought to whether the person was drawn or was seeking.  It doesn’t matter.  Willow has been relentless about finding ways to intersect the lives of people whose hearts are ready to consider faith in Jesus.  Why does it matter to you if they call these people seekers?  Why would you find fault with this passion?  Would that more of our churches would find such a passion.

Wendi

CS, I did not mention the phrase “God Shaped Hole” I actually said people are drawn by the Holy Spirit.  Don’t pick an argument I am not making and fight it as though I were.  I did say that the void in my life and in the lives of others cause by the absence of Christ.  The bible tells me that I was made by god for God.  The purpose of creation, is to glorify God.  It was made for that reason and “groans” under the weight of sin.  Again you assume that Willow uses the term Seeker outside of the drawing of the Holy Spirit.  Why do you assume this? 

I am not arguing against the depravity of man here.  Willow does not argue against the depravity of man either.  Rather I am recognizing the depravity of man, recognizing the drawing of the Holy Spirit and recognizing that I must present the Good News with the hope of partnership with the Spirit of God.  I have shared Christ with people who had no interest at all, they were not being drawn by the Holy Spirit.  I have shared Christ with people who were very interested and received the Grace of God because the Holy Spirit had drawn them.  I also know people who heard several times, each time taking a step closer to a faith relationship with Christ because they were drawn. 

My problem again here CS is you are making an argument that assumes Willow does not believe in the depravity of men and does not work in partnership with the Holy Spirit.

My neighbor drinks himself comfortably drunk each night.  He does so because he is a sinner and that sin has separated him from God.  The alcohol numbs the pain of sin, the loss of family, the hurt of life and fills the missing pieces of his heart with a substitute for forgiveness and a relationship with the God he was made by and for.  Is he at home seeking God?  It does not seem so but as I show him kindness, as I take him food now and then, as I speak with him about the hope I have found, he catches a scent of God’s Grace.  The Holy Spirit draws him and it is my hope that he will seek God because he is being drawn by God’s Sprit.  When he does I plan to be there and tell him more and more. 

CS, The very fact I was not made to be separated from God and am because of sin leaves a void within me.  In my life this void did not cause me to seek God because my heart is corrupted.  It did however still cause me to seek to fill the void.  When the Holy Spirit began to draw me and I did begin to seek after God, that void was filled by Christ.

To be a seeker of God and to seek to fill the void caused by sin are not synonyms in Willow’s or my terminology. But you assume they are and argue from that argument you make accusations. 

Romans 1-3 makes an amazing case for the reality of a void and for people seeking to fill that void.  Paul is making a case for grace and making a case for everyone’s need for grace.  He is getting ready to say at the end of Romans 3 that our condition required radical action by God and that faith is the only response God recognizes.  Paul’s description of mankind here is to show the greatness of God and the far reaching power of His grace.  But you seem to want to use it to pin humanities ears to the wall and announce they suck. 
This passage was not intended for my self loathing but rather for my God honoring.  It was written to show the gap or void that exists because of sin.  It was written to show that I try to stuff knowledge into this gap, I try to stuff works into this gap, I try to stuff heritage into this gap, I try to stuff religion into this gap.  Why?  Because I do not seek God.  It was written to show when I was powerless to do anything about my condition, God did something.  It was written to show the size and power of God’s love and grace.  Then when the Holy Spirit draws me, by faith I come to him and receive his Grace.

Leonard:

“Again you assume that Willow uses the term Seeker outside of the drawing of the Holy Spirit.  Why do you assume this?”

Time Magazine and other sources reported that Willow Creek went door-to-door and asked people what they wanted by survey, and delivered that to them.  From the evidence provided, they did not go door-to-door, preaching the Gospel, causing God to convict people of their sins, (which you agree is the way people get saved,) which then made them want to go to church in the end.  Instead, they went out, got ideas, changed the church to what the unsaved wanted, in an effort to bring them in.  That’s not Godly seeking.  That’s also not the purpose of church.

“My problem again here CS is you are making an argument that assumes Willow does not believe in the depravity of men and does not work in partnership with the Holy Spirit.”

My argument is that people do not seek after God outside of the Holy Spirit.  And if they were drawn of the Holy Spirit, we wouldn’t have to change any format to be “seeker-sensitive,” would we?

“Romans 1-3 makes an amazing case for the reality of a void and for people seeking to fill that void. “

This is an eisegetical interpretation.  Here, the presumption is made that there is a void ("God-shaped-hole" in most modern preaching) about which Paul is writing, and how man is trying to satiate that feeling.  In reading it without this preconceived view of this void, the text speaks of the depravity of man, standing against God.

I agree with you where you say, “He is getting ready to say at the end of Romans 3 that our condition required radical action by God and that faith is the only response God recognizes.” That is right on.  But I see no other Scripture that says, explicitly, “You have a yearning for God, an absence in your soul for Him.” To the contrary, I see that we stand as enemies of God, willfully disobedient, who follow evil, and remain in darkness.

--
CS