Every once in a while I will tell my congregation to reach forward and take their neighbors wallet and then give like they always wanted too!  (of course I do this jokingly, but we usually get a good offering as a result!)

Ellen:

You’re doing more ministry than all of the tithes that pastors spend on their cars, swimming pools and “parsonages.”

God bless you!

Pastors, I have four requests for you on this matter:

#1) Whatever you do, please repent of the guilt-based ploys for more offereings.  These are especially common (and, sadly, effective) among stewardship ministries and their .  It usually goes something like this “Of COURSE you can give a little more! Besides, God gave His only Son, so how could you hold back?” That just shows that even the truth (taht God gave His Son) can lay the foundation for powerful manipulation.

#2) Please, quit quoting/applying Matt 6:3 ("do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing") as justification for squeezing your flock.  The ploy usually goes something like, “Give beyond what you think you can, because Jesus said not to ‘let your left hand know what your right hand is doing’!” This false application ignores that the very next verse explains why Jesus said this: “so that your giving may be in secret.” Matthew 6:3 has nothing to do with the AMOUNT one gives, and it certainly does not endorse financial irresponsibility—not matter how well meaning.

#3) Quit teaching that “giving to the LORD” can only mean givng to the local church coffer.  Matthew 6 begins, “When you give to the needy...” That says, “needy”, which can mean giving through the church, but not always.  Jesus recognized direct-to-the-needy giving, and so should you.

#4) Quit using the word “tithe” in application to NT Church-era financial obligations.  The tithe was an obligation under the (abolished) Temple-Law system, not the New Testament Church, and you durn’d well know it.

Here is my favorite one, “#5 - Money-back guarantee”. I am fairly certain that this is the way God wants us to approach the practice of our faith.  I suggest folks try this for their alter calls as well. “Come and accept Jesus, and if in 90 days you are not completely satisfied, we will give you back your soul.”

I may try it this week!

Uh...I wasn’t complaining, I was trying to get across a New Covenant point (I’m under the New Covenant, not the Old) that each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion (an arbitrary 10%)

The other point is that I said I don’t tithe.  I never said I didn’t give.  There’s a very big difference.

killing is condemned in the New Testament also.  (Romans 13:9 - as part of the Ten Commandments) - by the way, do you keep the Sabbath?  Worship on the seventh day?

So is being strong in the Lord (Ephesians 6:10)

So is sufficiency in the Lord (2 Cor 3:5)

1) don’t “damn” me.
2) don’t judge my salvation
3) don’t presume to know whether or not I’m trusting and obeying.  You have no clue what I have or haven’t trusted God with.

Ellen

You Know I just wished that leadership would spend the amount of time and literature to disciple the Body of Christ as they do trying to figure out ways to pull a dollar out of someones pocket.

If the leadership of the church would return to truly knowing Christ and lead their congregations to a personal relationship with the Lord and teach them how to enter into God’s Most Holy presence we wouldn’t need special gimmicks to induce people to give.

The problem is that we don’t want to spend the time or the effort needed to seek God and would rather go to the internet to find our next sermon than to seek God’s heart and receive a direct word from God for those under our care.  How shamefully said is our current condition. It makes me weep.

Ricky, did it ever occur to you that there are many pastors who are just honest, hard-working, doing-their-best-in-a-thankless-job sort of guys?  While the pastorate today certainly has it’s problems, it’s completely unjust (read: sin) for you to speak of the whole lot of them as being out for excessive pay, attention, etc.  The Bible speaks just as strongly against bearing “false witness” as it does against greed. Meditate on Prov. 6:16-19 for a while.

There is nothing unbiblical about a full-time pastor who diligently works the fields of souls reading a living from it.  Consider 1 Tim. 5:17-18 “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,’ and, “The laborer deserves his wages’.”

Two things…
First, note the special elevation of “preaching and teaching.” It’s hard work, through tons of material, and to be quite honest, not everyone is gifted enough (memory, intellect, communication skills, spiritual development, etc.) to do it.
Second, note the “For the Scripture says...” opening verse 18.  The “for” there is “for” justifying, explaining and supporting (from Scripture) the previous statement.  The previous statement was that those engaged in “preaching and teaching” were WORTHY of “double honor”.  Given the financial context (context is critical here), the term “double honor” is in reference to financial support for their services.  This is supported by Paul’s statements in 1 Cor 9 that a living wage was, in fact, a right.  When Paul didn’t take a wage, he was supported by other churches.  He spoke of this as “robbing” those churches.  The Corinthians should have been mature and hospitable enough to pay him for his labors.

Pastoral salaray is a deeper issue, but one which inevitably comes up when discussing money and the church.  The bottom line is that Scripture establishes the basic precept that one who is in full-time ministry is “worth” a wage—one he can live on.  Of course, there are always those tightwads who feel a pastor shouldn’t be paid squat for putting in 60-or-so hours a week, but that arguement holds no Biblical support.

The Barna Group does the best research on stuff like this.  Here’s a bunch of numbers, by denomination, theology, etc… http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=85

For it is written in the Law of Moses, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? … (14) So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:8-14 (NASB)

Hello Ellen,

You mentioned two examples, one the “rich pastor” and one the “poor pastor.” It seems those are the extremes.  I believe the truth for what is right is in the middle.  A “pastor” should be paid in a manner where he can not just survive in this world, but is equipped to plan for his future, purchase those items he and his family needs and even sometimes wants.  The congregation who employs a pastor has an obligation to pay them a wage where they can live in a “middle class” neighborhood and still afford the items one needs to effectively pastor in these days.  i.e. A car the runs and is nice enough to be able to drive a member of his congregation to lunch without endangering them.  A home where they can live comfortably, and which allows them to entertain.  A financial package that pays enough for health insurance for both himself and his family.  And enough where he can save or invest as he sees fit. 

If a congregation wants their pastor to concentrate on the ministry, then they need to free him financially from the stress of knowing where his next paycheck is coming.

So, while you are right that a Pastor should not guilt his people into giving, by using the Law.  Neither should the congregation guilt their pastor into a financial package that means he needs to take handouts from the people just to get by.  Mutual respect and Love in this matter should be the goal sought by all.

Finally, you mentioned a Pastor Using the funds of the Congregation “rightly.” If a church has a good budget that can prevent anyone, Pastor, Elder, Deacon, Sunday school Teacher and the like from “misusing” any funds.  Further is one member of the church is abusing the stewardship of the church then they should be confronted.  But if you are saying that a Pastor who receives an income from the church, cannot use those funds according to his conscience, then I would ask you if you allow your employer to monitor what you spend your income on?

Ellen,

Relax, I am just having a conversation here.  I am not trying to read into anything you have wrote.  In fact I agree with much of it. 

Maybe my personal story might help you understand my point.

I am leaving church this next month, who cannot support myself and my family without themselves going into financial ruin.  It isn’t that they don’t want to, it is that they can’t.  Upon seeing this for nearly a year, I began to seek the Holy Spirit on what to do.  Should I find, another job and bi-vocationally pastor – after much prayer I realized that this would be unfair to my small three children and wife - the time issue.  So, I went to my board, they did not come to me, and I shared with them that the HS was asking me to step down, for the financial wellbeing of the church – that they can hire a younger minister then me at about half the salary and still have resources to reach out to the community.  I did this without a firm job to move into, but I believed by following God’s will he would care for me.  Just this week I have at least three job offers presented that I am reviewing.

A parishioner said to me, “why don’t you ask for more money?” I said, “because these people give as much as they can and I would not feel right in my conscience to do so.” I have made it a pattern of mine in my last 4 ministries never to know who gives what, so I could preach on the subject of giving as God directed me to.  I have never used gimmicks or guilt to increase any income at the church.  I have always believed that Holy Spirit directed Christians would give as God laid it on their heart to give, and so I trust him and them to be obedient to his Spirit.

I am sharing my story as a point of reality.  Those of us, like you, who are listening to the Holy Spirit and following his direction for you life, cannot sit by and ask “why does he get the fancy car and I have to struggle or leave my church?” Our job is to be faithful to the one who calls us, and let him work out the details of our lives as he directs.  I for one am very happy with this situation and trust the scriptures that say “I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging for bread.”

Blessings on you,
Al