John,
India is a nation whose faith is steeped in the demonic.  Hinduism with its 20 million god’s and goddesses can be traced back to the demonic.  I know, I have actually been there and done ministry there.  The same is true for many different countries of the world where faith is steeped in divination and the appeasement of false gods.  The western world has a long standing of Christianity that was not steeped in demonic activities.  That is why we do not see the demonic activity we see in other countries of the world. 

Again, you have used scripture to suit your thinking because you misquote 1 Corinthians 14.  It does not say you can all prophesy but everyone who does.  This does not mean everyone does but this is instruction to those who do.  You state that every believer is called to live in the spiritual realm but your use of Joel’s prophesy is not what Joel was saying.  He did not say that everyone will suddenly live in an invisible realm but when the Spirit comes.  Peter used the situation in Joel to identify for the Jewish audience that God was indeed the author of what was happening and not early morning drunkenness.

“I see Hogan does have a video here:
http://www.fathersglory.com/insp/David_Hogan-2.htm “

I saw the rest of the video (it’s 1.5 hrs).  In about the last 30 min. he gives a detailed story about raising one from the dead.  If raising from the dead is so common, why so much time and effort on explaining just one story? He then mentions, by the way, 21 other “raisings.” He doesn’t say if they were all at the same time or anything… whether he did it or he is repeating hear-say… or anything.  If healings are so easy for him, why not do them in America?  As he says, there’s only three possible people to blame for a sickness or death: God, the devil, or ourselves… and it’s not God or the devil.  If that’s the case, where’s the “proof in the pudding?”

In a nutshell, he says the believer can do all these miracles.  If one might ask him for a demostration, he then would say it’s more important to have a relationship with Jesus than do miracles.  So basically, he’s building himself up with credentials of being a man of God as evidenced by miracles, yet downplays miracles so he won’t be asked for proof… just my opinion…

It’s like what Kenneth Hagin did.  He claimed to be a prophet and teacher of the Word.  If you talk about his failed prophecies or about some issue with them, his supporters will say that it’s ok, because he’s a teacher of the Word.  If you bring up issues with his false teaching, they’ll say it’s ok because he’s a prophet.

...Bernie

I used to give money to the church, a lot of money.  Then one sunday the pastor complained that he wasn’t getting enough and he expected more so I quit giving money to the church.

Thanks for posting this article.  It helps remind me that my church money wasn’t going to God at all but only to bean counters, pundits and marketing professionals.

I find obscene the act of counting and commenting on money given not to men or churches but to God.

Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do.

Wow…

Pardon the internet for not translating my sarcasm - should have used quotes.

“a lot of money” = below cost of living standard.

And for the record, I don’t condone money making machine pastors who want a raise just to get a raise.

I think you’ll find that most guys like myself make “a lot of money” in the eyes of people who don’t realize it’s not quite as much as other professionals they pay (i.e. doc, dentist, etc). The time and stress and wounds my family experienced being under the microscope?  How much do you think that’s worth, I wonder?

“A lot of money” or a little?

Hmm - maybe you proved my point. 

See you at Home Depot sometime.  That’s where I work now.

Craig.

Quote scripture more carefully. The LOVE of money is the root of ALL KINDS of evil.

As one who draws a salary from the church, I can assure you, I give my gifts, my talents, my ALL… to Jesus and His church.

Peter Hamm said: “Craig. Quote scripture more carefully...” Hi, Peter.  I wasn’t quoting scripture.  I was expressing my personal opinion. Had I been quoting scripture you would have seen the book, chapter and verse noted. 

You went on to say: “...As one who draws a salary from the church, I can assure you, I give my gifts, my talents, my ALL to Jesus and His church” .  Peter, if you go back and read what I wrote you will notice that I don’t have a problem with you drawing a salary from the church and I don’t feel that you didn’t earn your salary.  What I was complaining about is the act of taking money given to God and counting it and commenting upon the total with judgement and disapproval as if it was one’s own cash and not God’s.  When I give money to God its between me and God and its not for any flawed mortal to review and comment upon.  To do so is an obscenity plain and simple.

Ah - but aren’t we all flawed mortals?  Which means sometimes our own view of tithing should have accountability to it?

Just as a side note, our church is under some budget issues these days.  I’m new to it as its lead pastor and believe that it’s partly my role to share this information with the church so they know where things stand.

However, I highly encourage the Scripture’s viewpoint that giving should be an act of joy and not of compulsion.  I’ve never once told people they have to give 10% but rather that this is a great benchmark we see several people in Scripture using.  For them, this 10% was a way that they set themselves apart to God from the get go.

Which, as a side note, I think in our consumeristic, me-first culture we need perhaps more than they did.  When I tithe every week it becomes for me a chance to say, “I’m not under the noose of a society that says ‘Spend it all, but more, spend what you don’t have, buy even more.’” It allows me the freedom to claim that I belong to God instead.

So last week I shared another update, then I thanks the givers in ours church by generically saying, “If you give to this movement of God we call Connection Church, thanks.  Just so you know we take the first 10% and send it out into other ministries locally and globally that we get no credit for because the Body of Christ is bigger than us.  On the other hand, we do think the Body of Christ involves us so just so you know your giving makes the lights stay on so that we can actually read the Bible together.  It also goes into human resources that keep pushing us toward the edge and reach more people when we’d rather settle into a comfortable spot in the middle.  And right now as we speak there is an entire generation of kids being blessed by curriculum we were able to buy because you gave.”

We don’t stop there, though.

“And I know some of you aren’t sure you’re ready to give financially.  You need to know that we love you just as much because you’re here and you matter to God and you matter to us.  So please keep coming, and let us know how we can serve you.  Or if you have a gift or skill your want to trade with someone else we have a section of our website devoted to that, too.  We’re not about money here, but we are committed to using whatever God-given resources we manage on His behalf - finances, skills, whatever - to further His Kingdom.  When you’re ready to do that, I know you’ll enjoy the blessing that comes from sacrifice.  And it is sacrifice, but it is a blessing.”

Final tag…

“Right now we’re below on our budget, and for several weeks this has become a growing problem.  Let’s figure this out.  From my family’s side, we’ve prayed about it and have committed to raise the amount we give every week until God tells us otherwise. We’re going to live more simply as a family, because I’m committed to this even if I have to get another job until the resources are in place.  I think you have a role to play in that, too, so whether it’s now or down the road, would you pray about the role the resources God’s given you to manage might play into what He’s up to in our midst?”

Before you critique, keep in mind I’m just the aforementioned flawed human.  Maybe if we all can agree that this is true of all of us, we can give each other grace and space to let even the releasing of the finances in our hands become an act of worship. 

Because “approval giving” happens when we like what’s going on, but “tithing” happens when we decide that no matter what… no matter who… no matter how…

blessed be His glorious Name.

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart.  The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.” (Job 1:21)

Craig, your point is well taken.  You write [I wasn’t quoting scripture.  I was expressing my personal opinion. Had I been quoting scripture you would have seen the book, chapter and verse noted.] Ahh, but your “opinion” that “Money is the root of all evil” is certainly contrary to what Scripture says. Money is used for many good things in scripture, and the verse you were “almost” quoting” says something VERY different from how everybody quotes it. That is what I thought you were doing.

Craig. Money is not the root of all evil, hence your statement of “opinion” was incorrect above, and contrary to what Scripture says, which is this: The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil. I pointed it out, because this is a very common distortion of biblical truth which you offered.

That’s not to say that you are not making some good points. Churches should NOT be “money hungry” at all. At our church, one of the ways we practice this is to intentionally NOT take an offering on those two “big visitor days”, Christmas and Easter. We very specifically instruct guests NOT to give in the offering every week. We rarely preach on money and tithing, and when we do it’s not heavy-handed. God seems to be providing for our church’s needs just fine, too.

Your idea would work great in an agricultural society, where the people I serve could possibly keep me fed with chickens, cows, goats, et cetera. however, our society HAS changed. And here’s an idea… how about we communicate the Gospel in the language and idiom of the people in that society. That is ALL we are saying when we say that we “adapt” the unchangeable message of the Gospel to the culture and society in which our God has placed us.

Craig, it always helps me to have a healthier discussion with someone if I know a bit about them.  Less assumptions and more interaction.  Who are you?  What do you do?  Family?  Kids?  are you an active part of a church right now? 

Me I am a pastor, been in the ministry for over 25 years, married almost 19 and 2 kids.

Thanks for chiming in here at MMI

Craig writes “Your comment is a little confusing. Are chickens, cows, goats, et cetera no longer edible in our modern society?  Perhaps the world hasn’t changed as much as you think?”

yes the world has changed. I do not know ONE SINGLE person who raises those animals, and therefore they do not have them to give.

As far as the question “Can the church really just say no to cash for a year?” I guess I don’t get the point. Your scriptural mandate that is implied above in this is, to me, a very non-traditional understanding of an old testament practice. Hardly a compelling reason to even explore the question.

You also wrote “If you have a home mortgage or a car payment or a bill from the dentist that can be taken care of without the church needing to touch any cash.” I guess I’m not following you here. What would be the difference between my church paying me money and my church buying my groceries and paying my bills, except that in the second scenario the church would have a stranglehold on how I spend my money that I find to be neither practical nor scriptural.

Are we addicted to money? If money represents either wealth or the goods and services required to live life, then we always have been, I think it’s part of human nature.

btw, I have a serious addiction to food. I eat almost every day, three, and sometimes four times! how do I break THAT addiction?

Craig -
I don’t think you answered Leonard Lee’s question so we can understand more of what you are trying to say.
Are you currently active in a church? Are you contributing to the expenses of that church?
What do you do for a living? Do you collect a salary or an hourly wage? Do you feel this is just?
I have been a church treasurer for a few years. I have seen the lean years and I have seen the bountiful years. I’m in my early 60’s and I have been married for thirty-two years. I have an office job that allows me to barely keep pace with expenses. I also know that all I have is God’s bounty. Why should I not want to give back some of that bounty to support His work?
Certainly none of our pastors is doing this just for the money. They do feel a calling to serve both God and man. But they also have families to support.
Are you saying that the church you formerly (?) attended mismanaged their finances (in your opinion)? Has that caused your bitterness toward giving to the church?
If you feel that the church leadership is not managing the church funds with good stewardship there are scriptural procedures you can follow and if all of them fail, leave and find a church where you can give your support and live under the authority of those church leaders.
Many of us serve as best we can without any monetary compensation. But I do think God has called some people to serve Him full time. I also think we owe those people the respect of paying a living wage if at all possible.
I honestly would like to know more of what is behind the extreme position you are taking.
Jim in NJ