Giving, in terms of absolute dollars, is marginally up at our church versus prior year; however, giving per capita, is likely down. I believe that’s due to the majority of our new members being young families on tight budgets. I also believe (though I don’t have absolute proof), that our giving over the past 3-4 months has been lower than prior months because our pastor has included tithing/law references in almost all of his sermons over that same period. We reap what we sow...every time.

Someone pointed out the number of self-storage places popping up everywhere.  I think that’s where people are storing their treasures.

Well, I feel compelled to post a reply.  I’m not a pastor (nor do I play one on tv).  Before I go on too much more that this is one of my hot button issues.

If we examine Matthew 28:20 (part of the great commission) tells us to “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” The way I read this, we disobey when we don’t teach people what the Bible says.  So, should there be a sermon every once and a while about tithing?  You bet.  People need to be taught.  Can you do it too much?  Sure, but I have never been at a church where this was a problem.

What should they be taught?  Well, how about this:

1) God owns everything
2) He gives us what we need (and what He wants to on top of that)
3) Everything we have is God’s
4) We are simply stewards of God’s “stuff”
5) He wants us to give back to Him

How much to give back?  Well, I believe that if people are going to tithe, they should give 10% of their pretax income to the local church (and by the way, why not write the check for an even $5 or $10?  Don’t write a check for $123.45...write the thing for $124...or better yet $125 or $130).  Anything else (the building fund, the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, Annie Armstrong Easter Offering, deacon benevolance fund, special offerings for pastors who preach our revivals...the list goes on and on) are an offering and are above and beyond.  What about those who can’t tithe you ask?  I say anyone can tithe...well, I guess with one exception.  If someone out there gives their kid 1 penny or 1 nickel, you can’t title off of that....Anyone else can and should tithe.  The person with that little unit of money ought to simply give it all.  (As an asside, I plan to teach my kids to tithe and five offerings.  Once they get that down, I plan to give them their allowance in denominations that don’t

If anyone ever asks my opinion about tithing, I tell them what I think.  The pastor should be very clear when teaching about this issue too.  I believe we rob God if we don’t title (see Malachi 3:8).  I remember very clearly being a kid, being given money for the offering plate, trying to hold some back, and my dad explaining that very simple principle to me.  If you don’t give 10%, don’t call it a tithe.  Don’t take part of your 10% and give it to the building fund...that should be an offering.  Don’t take part of your 10% and give to the guy who preached your revival...that should be an offering (offering = above and beyond the tithe).

What about the people who say but “God loves a cheerful giver?” I say quit making excuses and start tithing.

In the end, I see it as a heart issue.  If your heart is right with God, there isn’t a problem.

Oh, one more thing....I cringe when someone prays over the offering and asks God to bless those who give and those who don’t.  Why should we ask God to bless those who are robbing Him?

Hi Matt-

Matthew 28:20 doesn’t teach that Christians should tithe. Tithing isn’t taught anywhere in the New Testament.  Jesus said the Pharisee’s were right in tithing, but they were also right in keeping all of the law.  Jesus lived under the law at that time, as well as all his followers.  (The major break came in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem council.) No Christians keep the law today, and we shouldn’t, unless we want to be like the foolish Galatians. 

And don’t go to Malachi-- it wasn’t written to Christians.  The New Testament sheds new light, which you will never get from the Old Testament, such as teaching that the blessing to Abraham and his seed is fulfilled in Christ (see Gal. 3:29), and us, in Christ.

And yes, the Lord loves a cheerful giver.  Also, if it’s not given cheerfully, He hates it.  He’d rather not have a gift, than get one under compulsion.  It’s one of the worst things to give a sacrificial gift with the wrong attitude.

...Bernie

Have you died to the law (the written code) yet?
Romans 7:4 ... 6
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
,,, But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

The tithe was part of the Law given to Moses-- see Deut. ch. 26.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Deuteronomy+26&section=0&version=niv&new=1&oq;=&NavBook=de&NavGo=27&NavCurrentChapter=27

The foolish Galatians starting living under the law too, and were rebuked for it:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=galatians+3&section=0&version=niv&new=1&oq=foolish+galatians

...Bernie

Hi Leonard-

My position is that “stewardship” is superior to a Christian form of Old Testament tithing.  Stewardship (per the parable of the talents) means you devote everything to God, not just 10% of your increase in financial income.

Leonard said:

I am not so sure that God would not want you to give if you couldn’t with a good attitude, I rather think he would want you to change your attitude. 

God does not want sacrifice or tithe with a wrong heart.  Would you like to receive a gift (Christmas or birthday) from anyone begrudingly?  It negates it.  All our sacrifices should be given joyfully.  That is a basic precept.  Giving under compulsion is against a basic precept.  We agree the attitude should be right; get it right before giving to God.  Forget about the self-interest because of worrying about income for the church-- care more about the individual’s heart and that he’s giving for the right reason.

Leonard said:

As for a strict tithe I do not think you can attribute the tithe only to the law since Abraham tithed and Cain gave an offering to God so did Able.

Abraham did not tithe 10% of his increase every year to a priest.  He gave 10% of the spoils of war, one time, to a Priest of another city.  He didn’t keep the other 90% either.  So Abraham is in no way the model of a tithe for the Old Testament Priesthood or New Testament.  As for Cain and Abel, you are confusing sacrifices and freewill offerings for the tithe.  Please don’t
also confuse “first-fruits” with the tithe, as it also has nothing at all to do with 10%.

Acts 15 was all about liberation from the law for Christian living.  Tithing was instigated only when the Jews moved into the promised land, because the Levites did not gain a share of the land (they got tithes from the Holy Land instead, from crops and flocks).

I’m not saying to give less.  I’m saying to devote all money and talents to God.  As for how much to give to the local church, people should pray about it.  The poor should not tithe as a way to get rich or prosperous-- that’s false and dangerous teaching. Teaching a Christian version of Old Testament tithing is too hard on the poor, but for most people, too easy on the rich, which most of us are.

My position is that “stewardship” is superior to tithing, and that teaching tithing is wrong and counter-productive and confuses/destroys the true definition of stewardship.

...Bernie

Hi John Burton-

The Apostle Paul wrote:

Romans 10:2
For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

Tithing should not be promoted, because it is not just unbiblical, but it is contrary to true stewardship teaching (true stewardship is devoting everything to God, not just 10%).  Tithing (10%) is not even useful to teach as a starting point for Christians, as it brings in elements of keeping the law, leading to legalism.  It would be helpful to teach the idea of tithing to show how it was done in the Old Testamant, as an (inferior/primitive) example of giving, but it’s wrong to bring it into the New Testament church.  Just my opinion.

...Bernie

Oops… let me qualify- I do believe tithing is biblical, but the heart of your point I do agree with.  Maybe a new thesis needs to be nailed to a wall… ‘minimum expectations for a Christian’?

What we don’t realize is that the minimum, really, is WAY extreme.  If we people had the understanding that the average biblical life is light years above the bar that we have set for ourselves, it would revolutionize the definition of New Testament experience.

The point is this:  There should be a healthy system within our churches to ensure people are coached to the biblical norm.  At our place, I talk about barometers a lot.  For example, if we aren’t craving to be on our face in prayer, it’s a barometer of our intimacy with God.  There’s a problem.  If we aren’t giving at least 10% with the desire to give much more, there’s a problem.  The life of a believer is very much marked by significant works… God will judge us based on works, and we need to communicate this to the church.

A basic biblical mandate is for us to ‘be blessed to be a blessing’.  There are some very simple realities- God loves to bless his people, it takes a lot of money to run ministry, God chooses to facilitate that money through people, etc.
The principle of sowing and reaping is biblical.  Of course, we need to have a good heart in the matter, but to eliminate financial principles from our lives is a mistake.  Is there a reason to resist financial gain?  Is there something to be gained in poverty?
God has anointed specific people as ‘kings’… people with great governmental authority in a region.  These people carry a great responsibility to ensure thousands or millions of dollars are funneled into ministries.  It’s a critical need, and people like Kenneth Copeland and others meet an important need in the church- how to break the spirit of poverty and to be blessed to be a blessing.

John Burton writes

“For example, if we aren’t craving to be on our face in prayer, it’s a barometer of our intimacy with God.  There’s a problem.  If we aren’t giving at least 10% with the desire to give much more, there’s a problem.  The life of a believer is very much marked by significant works… God will judge us based on works, and we need to communicate this to the church. “

John, please tell me you don’t preach like this to the unchurched. I would hate to think that someone comes away from a message or a church so discouraged by how far short of the mark they are that they just give up. I’ve seen it too many times. The simple fact of the matter is that for manyh “intimacy with God” is something that is GROWING, not something that is accomplished. And that the person whose life is not “marked by significant works” is eventually going to experience that… but I don’t want them to be discouraged and give up.

We like to say here that a healthy church is made up of one-third mature committed Christ-followers, one-third “newbies” who are learning how to become the mature comitted Christ-followers, and one third unbelievers who are still sorting it out. I’m afraid the way you are teaching you will frighten away two of those groups. I want them to stay around and eventually grow into real committed followers of Jesus.

Russell, I hope you weren’t calling US hypocrites (in all caps)… we try not to relate that way here at MMI.

PS… Just got back from a Third Day/David Crowder/Hyperstatic Union show. 3rd day was good, HSUnion was good, David Crowder was SUBLIME! What a great evening of worship!

John Burton when you use Peters message in acts 2 as an example I think it misses something.  Here is why.  We live in a different society that Peter preached to.  He preached his message to a Jewish culture that had probably either seen Christ crucified, heard of it first hand from someone who did.  In his audience was possibly some of the people who shouted “hosanna,” then “crucify him” a week later and 50 days after that, “what must we do to be saved.” Our culture does not know God in any way shape or form like this.  The 21st century person does not believe the bible, does not know who Jesus is, does not have any or at best has very little familiarity with faith.  To be prophetic to this culture would IMO be more harmful than good.  Prophets by and large were for God’s people, calling them to God’s things because of God’s love.  Rarely were they calling pagans to repent although Jonah is an exception. John 3:17 has some meaning for me on this subject of the prophetic voice.

John, I appreciate your fire and passion, but I wonder at some of your conclusions. “How many pastors pray 2-3 hours a day?” So, the guy who prays 1 and a half is missing the boat? I think prayer is CRUCIALLY important, but your remark comes across, in context, as a bit “legalistic"… I know some GREAT men of God that don’t spend that kind of time in prayer on a daily basis, although I’ll admit I know NO great men and women of God who don’t spend SOME time…

Also, “God’s prophetic must usually flys in the face of relevancy”. I disagree… God’s word is ULTIMATELY relevant. This is why Paul changed the way he communicated it based on what town and culture he was in on a particular day, and that’s why we do, too.

“The rich young ruler wanted desperately to follow Jesus- and was rejected.” No I don’t think he was rejected. I think he did the rejecting.

“he fact that ‘mature’ believers are shocked when presented with the reality that a deep life of continual lengthy prayer every day should be a part of their lives causes great concern.” Again, I appreciate your focus on prayer and its importance. But asking a new believer in this media-saturated society to be engaged in hours of prayer daily is setting them up for discouragement and despair. Perhaps they should start with a good solid focused 15 minutes… then move on up to a half hour or so… Setting the bar so high on the “correct” way to “do” life as a follower of Christ can be very dangerous in my experience.

One of your comments, though, really got me.  “how many churches give at least 10% of everything that comes in to other ministries?” If one admits to the biblical-ness of the “tithe” (and not all here do), even then, that is talking about individuals tithing, not organizations such as the church. If a church is not giving 10% of its “income” into other ministries, I just don’t see that they are being disobedient… Especially if the best use of their resources is in THEIR house, THEIR community…

John,
Can a person experience the presence and power of God apart from this 2 hours of on your face before God?  Does the bible teach us that we need to spend two hours on our face before God to be worth a dime a dozen?  I am not arguing against a deep prayer life, I think I am arguing your definition of a deep prayer life.  It feels like you are defining something in a way scripture doesn’t but putting the authority of God behind your definition.