Oliver,
Not only are you wrong you are offensive.  Your words lack wisdom, knowledge, understanding and frankly, God.  The things you wrote are the writings of immaturity and foolishness.

Most pastors do not commit immorality as you assert, the are not “doing” their secretaries and for you to speak this way only shows ignorance.

excuse me but according to the “Catholic review board on priestly abuse holds first meeting amid victim complaints,” Associated Press, 2002-JUL-30, as many as 46,000 cases of clergy sexual abuse was reported in the catholic church alone, close to 1,000 ministers were reported in news releases to have abused children in the protestant faith in one year alone.  No granted, I shouldn’t have said all, but it is very prevasive.  recent statistic show that as many as 90% of pastors view pornography on the internet, many more have affairs that stay secret.  I can’t see how anyone doesn’t see this as a major problem.  no offense ment!

Oliver- Context?
What is sad is that from my estimation (someone correct me if I am wrong) the saff member in question would have been 17 at the time of the offence and I have yet to see if the perosn he “molested” ( I use the term loosely) was a 15 year old concentual thing or legitimatly child rape. (the Legal term is nebulous) Don’t wrongly assume that I am week on sin but when someone flys an accusation the interpretation of the event is important. Two examples 1. It IS different if this was a 17 year old who had sex with a 15-16 year old who then later in life repented and was born again and now wants to rid self of self condemnation. 2. A Malicious 17 who is raping 6 year olds.  The accusation out there implies for most people who are inindated with the recent media events and catholic priest that the second interp[retation is correct. This is malice! The fact that this person has not been arrested and that Dr. Gaines is demonstrating prudence in how to handle this (See 1 Tim 5.22 in context) leads me to believe the first may be true.  If that is then neither you nor I am close enough to weigh on this and If we think we are then we are in danger. I ask in reference to Jesu comments “He who looks… HAS...? Who then can really to the nth degree to claim above reproach?  Bilical Worldview is much need in our “christians” today.

OFF TOPIC…

This isn’t about pastor in immorality… this is about the group that is forming inside Bellevue…

Back to the discussion please. 

Todd

Chris,
Since you asked for the facts here they are in a nut shell.  They are pulled together from MMI postings as well as Bellvue.org the church’s website where the investigation report is available.

17 years ago, the minister in question, who served as an associate pastor at the church with 55 staff members, molested his then teenage son for 12 -18 months. 

He then repented, later told his wife, and later a RETIRED associate pastor.

In 2005 his family including his NOW married son and daughter-in-law went into counseling where the issue was addressed.  The counselor and later another former pastor of the Biblical Counseling Office(who was told in early 2006) of the church encouraged him to confess to the Pastor.

This man did confess to the Senior Pastor in June 2006 who decidedly was confused about steps to take since it appeared to all involved that nothing of the sort had taken place in the last 17 years and that his job did not have contact with children.

The senior pastor was confronted by the son in December 2006 as to why no action had been taken since the confession.

At this point the Senior Pastor place the man on leave and the investigation process by a committee and not the pastor, began and has been completed with report and this man’s termination.

The report includes stern reproaches for all you knew and failed to report or act.

The group in question on this post has formed a formal incorporation against not just the Senior Pastor but the entire church leadership - most who had no knowledge or involvement in the crisis.  The question on this board is whether this appropriate, Christ-like and good for the kingdom. And when, if ever, it is approrpiate for a group inside a church to take such action.

To reiterrate, their complaints are against the HANDLING of the situation, NOT that the person who molested his son is still with the church. 

While I agree that it was probably handled poorly, from reading their material, it appears that there is a bigger play for power against a pastor who has followed in the footsteps of a long time, well known, now deceased Pastor.  This church’s government proceedures are by elected by the church committee members and not a dictatorial staff set-up as some have suggested.

In responding to Cody, and also just trying to keep a general perspective on this without getting bogged down into details, let me elaborate my earlier comment.  The question was asked by Todd (#5) as to whether anything good can come from a situation where a leader is publicly questioned by the congregants.  While most people respond “no,” and talk at length about how we have to preserve unity, my response is (again) simply this… You cannot say that nothing good can result from these types of situations while simultaneously enjoying a Protestant fellowship.  That’s like saying that you believe the lottery is wrong while living in a mansion that was paid for through lottery winnings.  In studying church history, you have to make a decision… either Luther’s rebellion to the church was rebellion to God… or it was a Spirit-led movement to expose church hypocrisy.  If you worship in a protestant church… you vote with your feet (despite what you post here) that the latter was true.

Secondly, the statement that the church is not a democracy is not ENTIRELY true.  While most leaders and pastors will say this to secure their authority… most of them ignore the fact that they were voted in when they first came to the church.  So why was public opinion (albeit spirit-led, hopefully) the device used to confirm their entrance to the church but then no longer deemed valid in later affairs.

Third, to bring Scripture to this.  Research the historical context to why Paul even wrote 1 Corinthians.  A delegation from the church visited Paul (1 Cor. 16:17) with a letter to let him know what was going on.  It’s interesting that while Paul speaks against division in the church, (1 Cor. 1:10) he never seems to denounce the process by which the information came to him. (1 Cor. 1:11).

Think this pretty much sums it up… a pretty sad video of the times we live in…

“ME Church”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAg1rRbxrGY

Scott

Everytime I read the articles on this site, I become discouraged about the state of our churches. Does anyone remember that our job is to reach a lost world and make disciples of them?

I have a suggestion for struggling congregations....everyone from the leader on down to the newest members should fast and pray and don’t stop until everyone involved is humbled before God.

Do not talk to the media. Do not post info on the web. Do not call for a vote. Do not fight in public.

Just fast and pray and humble ourselves before God.

of course this is about immorality, that is part of the story at BCC!  Its about how institutional organizations often protect their leadership at the sake of integrity and the victims!  its about where the power lies in the institutional church!  anybody can see that!  I agree with shelley, this site is depressing!  but lets look beyond the sad articles, this site reflects like a mirror the sickness that has engulfed our churches. Why?  simple, because its become politicized, its about power and money.  It no longer is about making disciples!  I am just shocked that people like todd can’t see what is so obvious.  One solution is too leave those sick institutions, and live out biblical christianity apart from the sickness.

This is so CARNAL!!  I knew it was a denominational church by just reading the headlines.  The way to stop this “reproachful” mess, that does nothing but cause the unsaved to look at the church with great disdain, is this:  Get out of the Denominational bondage and politics.  Let the men of God start their own works and have people in leadership who love God more than their positions and tell the abomination, oops, I mean denomination, and the pharisees to take a hike.

I don’t know about the situation in Bellevue, but I have experienced both sides of the situation. Obviously, members don’t leave but stay and fight because they feel it is their church just as much as it is the church of the leadership, and this is true! Leaders can and do err, and it is not wrong to challenge them. We are accountable to one another!

Jesus went into the temple courts and overturned the tables of the money changers. The priests were the designated authorities over the temple courts. They were not making Jesus use the money changers. Yet, he not only challenged them. He drove the money changers out with a whip! If he could do that, who are we to say that members of a church have no cause or right to stand up against church leaders.

Jesus said, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law - a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me ...” (Matthew 10:34-37a).

I am not advocating rebellion within the church, and Jesus did indeed command us to walk in love and to live peacefully with those around us. But, we need to be careful how we interpret and judge the actions of others, lest we even judge Jesus himself! Unity is not God! We are not called to serve unity, but God! If preservation of unity becomes the deciding factor on how we respond to the evils we see, how can truth and righteousness ever win out?

It does easily happen in churches that leaders, elected or hired, think they know the will of the people and take it as mandate to do as they please. Sometimes they don’t even care about the will of the people, and do as they please. If this is an entrenched habit, someone needs to stand up against it.

Furthermore, we in our democratic society have come to think that majority vote equals God’s will. Not so!

All this would happen much more smoothly if leaders would slow down and strive for consensus before making decisions. People rebel because they feel they are not being heard or taken seriously or respected. For that to happen in the church of Jesus is a travesty!

When does a splinter group go too far? When not only the leaders, but the rest of the congregation as well ask them to leave, and yet they persist as bullies. But, if they decide to stay and calm down, they still need to be treated respectfully and given voice. Let Scripture prove the case as people debate one another openly and not under coercion. Don’t we trust God that truth will defend itself and be self authenticating? So, let us not be afraid of debate, as long as it is kind, and does not fall into name calling, slandering, etc.

Answers-(I’m a Bellevue member for a long time) The opposition to pastor Gaines is the main force driving the group.  Dr. Rogers practically hand picked Steve Gaines.  Look in the forward of his devotional book at the men who know and endorse him, a who’s who of famous and not so famous Christian leaders and teachers.  I’ve read every day of his book for one year.  He preaches sin, salvation, forgiveness, etc.  He’s a Baptist through and through.  The group who opposes him may have started with pure motives but have, I think, lost all perspective.  They have veered right into the abyss of self righteous edge of insanity rhetoric that is amazingly judgmental, harsh, and condemning toward not only Gaines but everyone on the staff who isn’t calling for his hide.  They have decided they are the voices of ones crying in the wilderness and the majority who have stood on about 8 different Sundays to offer standing ovations in support of Dr. Gaines, (how else will 5-6000 people express support for one man in a huge room) are all misguided blinded sheep.  It’s as though they don’t understand that if he resigned tomorrow, there would be a huge divide and gaping emptiness because a very large group of people would be quite upset that their pastor had been stolen from them by the divisive worldly tactics of this power play and all we wanted was a good pastor, beautiful music and worship, and a place to have fellowship with our SS brethren while seeing people saved and baptized every Sunday at every service.  Which is most assuredly happening right now while they rail away on their mission of destruction.

Hi Todd-

I guess you unbanned me...?  I got your email and found that I could come back.  Thanks for the invite,,, or the oversight?

Anyway, I think if a church is operating in maximum accountability, there would never be an opposition group forming to make it more accountable.  If the records were public, there would be nothing to expose. 

...Bernie