Come on . . . the absence of alcohol in the church a result of women pastors and feminism???  Me thinks he doest complain [way] toooooooo much.  What’s next?  Women are taking over the world and have caused global warming, the war in Iraq . . .

Yes Todd, I’ll give them that this is well thought out, but so was the heist portrayed on the movie Ocean’s 11.

On the topic of alcohol . . . sure, there may be evidence that it was served in the early church, and certainly throughout church history.  But there are other things present in the early church which we would not adopt in our culture (which of you thinks your congregation would go for selling all their possessions and living together communally?) Plus, church history doesn’t serve as our model (how about forced baptisms or selling of indulgences?)

In our 21st century church context we have to consider people might be among us with any of a multitude of problems related to alcohol.  Our churches are large and relationships with attenders often very impersonal.  So, why not err on the side of caution and keep alcohol out of the church?  If someone (like me) enjoys a good cabernet with a delicious filet, that is their own business and the church can stay out of it.

Wendi

Driscoll is quoting Luther, not making a statement about women.  Luther is saying that because men stumble by lusting is no reason to banish women, just as men stumble in drinking is no reason to banish alcohol.  There is no feminism or blame here for women.

As soon as I mentioned the name “Driscoll” people immediately went to task on the women issue.  As Leonard pointed out… this was a Martin Luther quote… you can’t blame that one on Mark Driscoll.

Interesting… I should have posted it without Driscoll’s name attached.

Todd

Whether or not I agree with Mars Hill Church and Mark Driscoll’s recently published position paper on ‘alcohol’ usage is not important here.

What is important is that those who are members or are considering being a part of of Mars Hill Church knows where their church and her pastor stands.

Leonard –

Last week I joined you here defending Driscoll against John MacArthur for his (MD’s) efforts to use relevant language in order to reach lost people, but I think we’re gonna come down on different sides here.

Really?  You don’t feel the second paragraph of this paper points to women (okay “feminism in the church”) as the reason alcohol has been banished in the church?

[As feminism grew in America during the turn of the 20th century the women’s suffrage and prohibition movements were the practical results of a feminine piety that came to also dominate the church as more women became pastors and the church became more feminine . . . The marriage of Christianity and feminism helped to create a dry nation that put out of business all but the largest brewers who were able to survive on near beer and root beer which explains why today American beer is largely mass produced, watered down, light on calories, and feminine in comparison to rich and dark European beers.]

You say [To err on the side of caution is to still err, to land on the foundation of truth and biblically informed conscience is right.] Doesn’t the Apostle Paul counsel us to err on the side of caution?  As I read scripture, I understand that we should always willingly subject our freedom in Christ to the furtherance of the gospel.  If our freedom to eat pork chops, or drink a beer . . . or pastor a church, causes a brother to stumble or a seeker to miss the message, then the message trumps our freedom.

Wendi

Let’s move on…

67 scripture passages referenced in the Mars Hill statement on alcohol.

Haven’t heard anyone criticize any of that interpretation, just the one sentence on women.  Anyone have any problem with any of the actual scriptures and how they were interpreted?

Todd

Todd,
I have NO problem with the Scripture… I’m just waiting for someone to identify this as another PD ploy being puppet-mastered by RW, who as far as we know has no connection to Martin Luther, but is a close personal friend of MARGE Simpson who is a very keenly spiritual woman (for a “vulgar” cartoon figure)…

BTW the verification code I am being asked to type in is “hell56” Does that make this an even more trendy site?!?!

I have no problem with how he applied the scriptures—in this instance —just that I get the feeling that he’s saying, “Boy, if only the women would just let us have a beer, life would be great(insert belch)!” (And by the way, he devoted an entire paragraph, not just one sentence, to blaming the lack of alcoholic joy in the church’s life on women).  But I digress..........

If the question is, can we drink responsibly, then there is plenty of Scriptural support for that, and Mark lays out a good case for it.

I think the best part of the paper is the last paragraph, which Todd didn’t include.  It reads:

At Mars Hill Church, we ask that everyone act according to their conscience when it comes to alcohol consumption. Because of past sin, some who have had problems with alcohol may need to abstain for fear of stumbling into old sinful habits. For those who enjoy alcohol with biblical moderation, we recommend using discernment when providing hospitality for others who may have conscience or addiction issues. Best of all, we look forward to the day when our Lord and Savior will prepare for us a redeemed feast with wine: (followed by a quote of Isaiah 25:6-9)

This seems to be a good distillation (can I say that here?!?) of the biblical counsel on this potentially-divisive subject.  [As for the links to feminism, I’m just not sure how helpful that is to the position paper.  If it’s accurate - and I don’t know one way or the other - it is interesting history, but the biblical perspective is certainly far more compelling.]

No problems with the scriptures referenced in the article, nor the interpretation by Driscoll & Co.

Matter of fact...I think I’ll crack open a bottle of Shiner or a glass of red this evening and thank God for His provision.

Let’s just all relish in the wonderful should I say “relevant” compromise of Mars Hill Church… maybe they should have done some actual research on the topic before they ran to the “middle road.”

The leading causes of death in 2000 (the latest figures available) show alcohol consumption the third highest cause of death in the country. 85,000 deaths.

Consequences of Alcohol Addiction

*One-quarter of all emergency room admissions, one-third of all suicides, and more than half of all homicides and incidents of domestic violence are alcohol-related.

*Heavy drinking contributes to illness in each of the top three causes of death: heart disease, cancer and stroke.

*Almost half of all traffic fatalities are alcohol-related.

*Between 48% and 64% of people who die in fires have blood alcohol levels indicating intoxication.

*Fetal alcohol syndrome is the leading known cause of mental retardation.

Scope of Alcohol Addiction

Alcohol addiction affects both genders, every ethnic group, and people in every tax bracket.

*There are more deaths and disabilities each year in the U.S. from substance abuse than from any other cause.

*About 18 million Americans have alcohol problems; about 5 to 6 million Americans have drug problems.

*More than half of all adults have a family history of alcoholism or problem drinking.

*More than nine million children live with a parent dependent on alcohol and/or illicit drugs.

Cost of Alcohol Addiction

*Alcohol and drug abuse costs the American economy an estimated $276 billion per year in lost productivity, health care expenditures, crime, motor vehicle crashes and other conditions.

*Untreated addiction is more expensive than heart disease, diabetes and cancer combined.

*Every American adult pays nearly $1,000 per year for the damages of addiction.

So it Mars Church is reaching the “unchurched” “relevant” “cool crowd” then you might think these facts would lead a good leader to be more “relevant” and not encourage any activity that would even lead “one” of his flock down this road.

PA

Pastor Al, perhaps similar statistics on sex (I have no doubt they would be more drastic) should cause believers never to copulate?
Aaah, yes, but then Paul specifically prohibits that.
As an aside, I have to say, I laughed when I read this: “American beer is [...] feminine in comparison to rich and dark European beers.” Has anyone here been to France?  The guys there are waaay more effeminate (at least by Driscoll’s standards) than here.  But perhaps feminism didn’t have the same effect on the Old Continent as it did in the U.S…
My two frustrated cents.
-Daniel-