My favorite hymn… “One Bourbon, One Scotch, and one Beer” by George Thoro--oops… oh HYMN, I’m sorry.

Tied for my fave are two “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” and “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee” (possibly the most amazing melody of all time...)

Alcohol is not a big deal in our church, we’re not very legalistic, and yet it is important to note that like many other things, without moderation… bad, very bad… I have, like Dan says in his post, seen a lot of destruction result from Alcohol abuse in people’s lives. But I’ve seen people ruin their finances with an ebay habit, or gambling addiction (I’m a little legalistic on the gambling thiing, I admit...), or food…

Todd, have you seen [url=http://www.riverbrew.com]http://www.riverbrew.com[/url]?

The real problem regarding rules against alcohol is those rules add to scripture, something Jesus criticized the pharisees for, because it created a stumbling block for people to find God.  That hasn’t changed.  Many people still view the church as a place with a bunch of pious rules.

Having been a S. Bapt most of my life I would say that most people in the pew do not agree with Dr. Mohler. 

I also think that the IMB has a perception problem in many places around the world on this issue.  I have seen it first hand in Europe.  It puts their missionaries in a tough position.

Hymn: Be Thou My Vision

On the alcohol issue I personally refrain.  I have known quite a few people who have gone through Teen Challenge for alcohol among other addictions.  I would not want to hinder my testimony or cause someone to stumble by being forceful in saying there is no problem with having a drink.  Would it hinder my testimony to be opposed to alcohol (ie people thinking christianity is lame because of it)?  I don’t think so...in fact I think people are more likely to admire someone who stands by their values (not rules) than someone who has no bounderies.  that’s just me though

As a Brit who loves classic hymns as well as contemporary worship music, I couldn’t resist answering the question about favourite hymns. Choosing one is tough, though. I think my top five would be And can it be, O for a thousand tongues, Crown Him with many crowns, Great is Thy faithfulness, and When I survey the wondrous cross.

Compare some modern worship songs with hymns like these and you will find that they are lightweight to say the least. I am thankful for a recent trend in pentecostal/charismatic churches in the UK whereby old hymns hauseve been resurrected and reset to contemporary accompaniment - either a modern arrangement of the original tune, or occasionally a new tune altogether. This has helped make the heritage of hymns accessible to countless younger people.

Final comment - I’m also a big fan of the likes of Stuart Townend and Keith Getty, many of songs may be described as modern-day hymns (e.g. How deep the Father’s love for us, Oh to see the dawn, In Christ alone).

Rob

I think Al would be a bit more relaxed if he would pop the cork on a nice Merlot or Cabernet a couple of nights a week. I find it funny that churches still have discussions about alcohol. Isn’t the Scripture clear (as JMc noted) that drunkeness is a problem not alcohol itself?

I am not much of a beer drinker, but red wine is a must. I only drink in my home or when I go out to eat in a resturant in a different city. I don’t drink in public in my town in order to apply the “don’t make your brother stumble” principle. Red Wine is what Jesus drank. Paul told Timothy to save a little wine for your stomache’s sake. Medically, red wine is good for your heart.

Derek

In the Bible, there is a wine that is intoxicating and a wine that is not intoxicating.  Proverbs 23:31 says, “Do not look on the wine WHEN it is red, WHEN it sparkles in the cup, WHEN it goes down smoothly.” The Hebrew word “when” indicates that there was a time when it was fermented and there was a time when it was not fermented.

There are four words in the Bible that are used for “wine”:

SHEKAR – always referred to as strong drink.  It referred to any kind of drink that could intoxicate and it is always condemned in the Bible (except when used as a narcotic to ease pain).

TIROSH – translated in the Bible as either “wine” or “new wine” (i.e. “thy presses shall burst forth with new wine.” Isaiah 65:8 called that which was in the cluster of grapes new wine.  You will not get drunk on that!  This was a type of beverage the ancients could make so that it didn’t ferment.  There has to be a mechanical process in order to get grape juice to become intoxicating.  Historical evidence shows that the ancients drank TIROSH just as much as we drink water.

YAYIN – may mean intoxicating or not intoxicating depending on the context.  It’s just like the word “drink” we use today.  If a person were in a bar and he were offered a “drink” it would be assumed that the drink he is being offered is alcoholic.  If he were at a Baptist potluck and someone offered him a “drink” it would certainly take on a different context.

The Greek language only uses one word for wine which could mean either YAYIN or TIROSH.  So did Jesus serve “strong drink” (alcoholic) at the wedding of Cana?  No.  Don’t you think Jesus knew the verse that said, “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor a strong drink”? 

What about when Jesus served wine at the last supper.  Was that alcoholic?  It couldn’t be.  He served the fruit of the vine (the cup) and he used unleaven bread because leaven had yeast in it which was symbolic of sin.  Alcohol has yeast in it.  When Jesus took that cup at the last supper, Jesus said that these things represent his body and his blood.  If we assume that the wine Jesus served was alcoholic wine, we are saying that Jesus’ blood was tainted with sin. 

MY POINT: When we mention the word wine which was used in the Bible we are not necessarily talking about that which was intoxicating.

A report from the American Medical Association says that there are 17 million alcoholics in our country.  Their study showed that 2 out of every 5 people who pick up a drink for the first time will end up with a serious alcohol problem.  When you pick up that first drink, it’s like playing Russian Roulette—you’ve picked up a gun with 5 chambers and there’s a bullet in two and you’re pulling the trigger—gambling that you won’t develop a serious problem.  The Japanese have a proverb that says, “First the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man.”

Yet you might say, “Well, I can drink and not be affected by it—I drink but don’t get drunk.” It is the person who can socially drink and not get drunk that encourages the other person to drink.  If a frat boy in college sees his mother and father drink, he will think it’s all right and he may even become an alcoholic. Moderation is not the answer to the alcohol problem—in most instances it is the cause of it.  It is the moderate drinker that encourages other people to drink. 

Going back to Proverbs 23:31—when the Bible says, “Do not look on the wine…” that phrase “do not look” means don’t lust after it, don’t desire it, simply leave it alone!

To wrap it all up—I think Abraham Lincoln had a great point: “Alcohol has many defenders [including those within the Christian faith] but alcohol has no defense.”

Brandon--perhaps you could explain this passage then:
“When the head steward tasted the water that had been turned to wine, not knowing where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), he called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the cheaper wine when the guests are drunk. You have kept the good wine until now!” Jesus did this as the first of his miraculous signs, in Cana of Galilee. In this way he revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.” (John 2:9-11, NET)
If the guests are getting drunk on the wine… wouldn’t that usually imply it’s a little more potent than grape juice??
My two cents.
-Daniel-

Brandon,

““The term “wine” or oinos in the ancient world, then, did not mean wine as we understand it today but wine mixed with water.” I’ve researched this and found no basis for this understanding of oinos whatsoever. It is, as far as I can tell, revisionist thinking. The most respected Greek lexicons make no mention of this understanding of the word, not even in some isolated contexts. Check BDAG p. 701, for those of you who have one. Oinos merely means “a beverage made from fermented juice of the grape.”. The only other definitions listed are “punishment that God inflicts on the wicked” as in RV 14:10, and “the plant that makes the production of wine possible”. What IS true is that they very often drank a very light wine that was mixed with water in the ancient world, instead of water, because it was healthier, the plain water so often being unhealthy because of sanitary conditions. That part of your argument is true, but it by no means refers to all wine.

“A believer in no way can justify drinking if thereby he is contributing...” Better inform people who are Christians who own knives or guns then… Or cars.

“What they don’t tell you is that you can achieve the same health benefits of the flavenoids and antioxidants by drinking a glass or two of Welch’s grape juice.” I asked about this. It’s not the same, especially with regard to the good cholesterol which is the reason they’re suggesting it to their patients.. I wasn’t quoting a statistic, but information based on my own acquaintance with the very top teaching cardiologists in the world, who I used to rub shoulders with on a regular basis… the ones who actually teach the other cardiologists how to do what they do.

Brandon, I won’t argue with you that it is a good thing to abstain from alcohol. For many, if not most people, this is a good thing to do. But your arguments are the kind of thing I’ve heard from people who have, imho, read into scripture what they want to believe, especially with regard to things like Cana and the meaning of the word oinos. A little research will show that most of those arguments are biased at least.

Brandon,

Thanks for your very well thought out response. This might be an area where we need to agree to disagree (and yet stay in fellowship, yay!). I will just say that I would always be careful of reasearch done by googling stuff, only because you will find compelling arguments both ways. google “climate change” and you will find sites that prove it’s happening and sites that prove it’s not, for example…

You and I have come to very different conclusions (although we agree on the dangers of drunkenness) however, this is not a huge bone of contention for me, so I totally respect your conclusions and think you should stick with them.

And although I do not abstain, I am more than very careful about who I would imbibe near.

BLESSINGS,
Peter

Peter,
Great posts. I was reading Brandon’s comments, but didn’t have the chance to respond. You posted what I was thinking and you did it with a gracious spirit.

I enjoy red wine, but I don’t completely understand the fermentation process. Wendi maybe you can help. Without refrigeration, won’t all grape juice begin to ferment? I mean if my kids hide a cup of apple juice in their room, in a week or so that stuff is ripe!

I assumed that all juice was fermented in biblical times because there was no refrigeration. Sure they can water it down, but it still has alcohol in it.

Derek

Derek –

The short answer is that the difference is air and yeast.  As some point in the process of fermenting juice, yeast is added to manage the fermentation.  Then at exactly the right moment, and only the expert winemaker knows for sure when that moment is, the juice is prevented from further long term exposure to air.  Air will eventually cause all fermenting things to spoil.  Left to natural elements, grape juice will indeed ferment (and so will an Easter egg the kids overlook in the backyard).  I wouldn’t want to partake of either one.

Brandon –

I believe that you didn’t intend to be inflammatory or divisive, and I don’t think you have malice in your heart.  I chimed in to try and explain how your words could be perceived by others who have a different understanding of scripture.  Our motives are irrelevant to the reality of how our words are perceived by others.  I thought it might help you to know this. 

I have a pretty good hunch that the doctrinal statement of your church and mine are in very close agreement.  Among different Christian denominations there is general agreement about the essentials of our faith.  These essentials include things like; the belief in one God existing in three persons; the deity of Jesus, his virgin birth, sinless life, atoning death, miraculous and bodily resurrection; the inerrancy of scripture; the sinful nature of man and need for salvation which is found in Jesus alone and comes about through the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit.  Apart from these core doctrinal essentials, there are MANY (yes many!!) areas of faith and practice on which intelligent and mature believers hold different views (various end-times scenarios, charismatic issues, eternal security, for example.) These different views arise from the reality that, in regard to non-essentials, there is more than one legitimate interpretation of scripture (which does not infer that the HS had more than one intended meaning).  Whether to abstain from or drink alcohol in moderation is one of those non-essentials.  Recognizing different interpretations in no way compromises our (yours or my) belief in the inerrancy of scripture. 

Mature believers understand that our ability to authentically communicate the gospel to a lost world is demonstrated through our willingness to grant grace to one another areas of honest disagreement and when necessary, to work through differences respectfully and honorably.

Brandon, you say [There is only one single meaning in the Bible when it comes to the issue of alcohol and it cannot be contradictory because it is the Word of God.] So how do you know that you have been enlightened with the “one single meaning” and not me?  You and I disagree.  We both love Jesus.  I’m probably as studied as you are.  Maybe I have been granted HS insight into the “one single meaning” instead of you.  Truth is, we both, this side of heaven, have limited knowledge and understanding.  So what is the best use of our time while we’re on this assignment?  To expend energy attempting to persuade one another that we have the right interpretation about a non-essential of our faith?  To criticize or condemn the one we disagree with as “unwise” or “unbiblical” (which I believe you said of me)?  I don’t think so. 

You ask, [Does drinking your wine make you a better person? Does alcohol draw you closer to God? Does alcohol help you run the race faithfully to the end (Heb. 12:1-2)?] It contributes to making me a better person as much as does drinking Pepsi, or going to a movie, or reading a mindless novel, or pruning my roses, or playing scrabble, or listening to a James Taylor CD (I’m dating myself), or taking my dog for a walk, or doing any of the things I happen to enjoy.  I happen to believe we do indeed bring glory to God when we robustly embrace and enjoy the life He’s given us.  For me, that sometimes involves a glass of wine on a warm summer evening with my husband in my backyard, watching my dogs romp and play on the lawn.

As an example of what I think is a better way to engage in this discussion with brothers and sisters, might I suggest that more respectful way to have closed your response to me would have been to say, “FOR ME, avoiding WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE a devastating drug is simply the wisest thing to do.”

Wendi

Wendi,

You are correct when you say that the issue of alcohol is not an essential to the Christian faith.  The five fundamentals of what we believe as Christians (virgin birth, inerrancy of Scripture, etc.) are the essentials.  However, although this issue of alcohol is not a matter of Christian doctrine or belief, it is a matter of Christian ethics.  It is a matter of what is right and what is wrong concerning Christian behavior.

I am not claiming to have certain enlightenment to the Word of God that supersedes what anyone else can have.  I read God’s Word at face value and those areas that are questionable, I dig deeper into the Hebrew and Greek, historical/grammatical analysis, etc.  That is something that all of us can do.  I think we both agree that Scripture has only one intended meaning.  That means that one of us is right and one of us is wrong. 

My question for you is this: You say that you can drink in moderation and be fine with it.  Then how do you get around certain passages of Scripture, including but not limited to Proverbs 23:31, “DO NOT LOOK on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly.” I don’t see any idea of “drinking in moderation” with that verse or that passage altogether.  In fact, I see from that passage that the overarching theme of Proverbs is “don’t have anything to do with alcohol…stay away from it… ‘for at last it will bite like a serpent and sting like a viper.’” It appears to me that the meaning here is pretty obvious—not open to interpretation or debate. 

You claim that my closing statement should have been “FOR ME avoiding WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE a devastating drug is simply the wisest thing to do.” What I believe and what you believe is irrelevant.  God’s Word has the final say.  We don’t read the Bible and then make up our minds if we are going to believe it and live by it.  Please do not take anything that I say as a personal offense because I don’t have any personal vendetta against you or anyone else on here.  I am not speaking directly to you but collectively to anyone who reads this post.  This is a blog for pastors and Christian leaders, and we should be the ones to live on a higher standard and walk blamelessly in this world and not be a cause for someone to stumble into alcoholism.  We don’t need to consume alcohol to enjoy the life that God has given us.  WE JUST DON’T NEED IT—so why risk a damaged testimony in the eyes of many, the potential of someone else following our example and developing a serious alcohol addiction, and a “possible” disobedience to the commands of Scripture—namely Proverbs 23?  With that in mind, abstinence truly is the wisest thing to do.