So… now that we’re over a hundred responses… did one person even answer the original question???:

Could Jesus Be a Southern Baptist Pastor?

Quick survey… one word answers only please… yes.  or no.

Camey—It sounds like you have an awesome ministry opportunity with the homeowners with a MAN ROOM. If alcohol had been “untouchable” for you like it is for other Christians, you may have missed out on the opportunity to reach out to them.

Leonard—Yeah the laity/clergy argument is thrown around in the alcohol discussion. It is not biblical because we are all the laos (people) of God. I think there is some validity to thinking through what leaders do, because a leaders sin can effect more people than a non-leader’s sin. And I had to run out and get groceries, so I missed the quick comments to make it 100. Looks like it was a team effort!

Todd—Oh crap! I forgot the freakin’ post about potty mouth Pastor Chuck. I think I added my five comments (or so) to that thread.

And what no prize for 100 comments?!?

I was hoping we would each get a bottle of....Diet Coke....or something!

And to answer the original question, I don’t think Jesus could be a SBC Pastor.

Answer:no

Derek

Nah… He woudn’t need to be.

Oh, sorry. No.

Well, if we’re looking to make it to a 200th post—I know any of my comments will provide good fodder for additional discussion.

As I hope this may be one of my final posts to this discussion (but I know better not to make any promises)—let me just reiterate that there are basically three facets to my argument for abstinence from alcohol:

1.) A strong biblical case for abstinence based upon Biblical prohibition and can be backed up by some of the world’s leading Biblical scholars (most of which aren’t Baptist—Leonard, I should have seen that one coming. You’d be surprised to discover how many of them are Jewish).  I agree, finding people who agree and disagree with me is never a problem.  But if you were to do the research, I am confident that you will find that even the strongest arguments “moderationist Christians” bring up is solidly deflated by these theologians.  And no, it is not an attempt to revise Scripture.  It is our attempt to ascertain what wine was back in ancient Biblical times.  And I would submit to you that when we take the alcohol of today and treat it as equal to the alcohol of ancient times—that is revisionist history in its purest form.

2.) The second facet to my case is based upon our influence in Christian leadership.  Along this line, we see throughout Scripture that abstinence was not only an ideal but also a requirement for the choice servants of God. In the Old Testament we see that the kings, the priests, the prophets, and the Nazarites were to be free from not only drunkenness, but from alcoholic beverages altogether.  Derek picked out the Nazarites (who were also forbidden to even drink unfermented wine) and was clear to mention that Jesus did not take the Nazarite vow, obviously because he turned water into wine (which all of you know I believe was NOT intoxicating).  But that begs the question, Derek…if God has a reason behind every command in Scripture—why did he command for all of the choice servants of God (kings, priests, prophets, etc.) to abstain from intoxicating wine?  The reason why God would have them to completely abstain from any wine has a lot to do with why many Christian leaders believe in abstinence.  What you believe concerning the distinguishing line between clergy and laity is irrelevant.  Throughout Scripture, it is quite apparent that leaders are held to a higher standard.  It’s also just a basic sociological principle.

3.) The third facet to my argument is built upon the very nature of alcohol itself and the damage it has done on society.  Many have tried to compare other things we do as Christians to but there is no other comparison.  Alcohol is not a stimulant.  It is a narcotic drug and in terms of its affects on the human body alone (i.e. mind-altering drug, poisonous toxins, and addiction factor)—it is strikingly similar to illegal drugs.

-- According to the Marin Institute, “Alcohol is the number one health problem in France.” Interestingly, in a country where drinking is culturally acceptable, they are linking the average Frenchman’s shortened life expectancy to their lifestyle of casual drinking.

--Alcohol kills more kids than all illegal drugs combined.

--Alcohol is a key factor in 1 out of 3 divorces.

--Alcohol is a factor in more than 50% of all domestic violence incidents.

--More than 100,000 deaths each year in our nation are attributed to alcohol.

--For every $1 collected in revenue from the alcohol industry, $8 is spent on alcohol-related problems.

--I just came across this today: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill scientists have reported - for the first time - a burst in new brain cell development during abstinence from alcohol consumption.  (Could it be possible that those who abstain are smarter than those who don’t?  I know, that was a cheap shot, but I’m just trying to lighten the mood here).

--Statistics show that there are far more victims of alcohol than any other drug in this nation.

Now those are the results of alcohol in our society.  But of course, as some of you have suggested, we shouldn’t encourage others to practice abstinence because—after all—that is just a sub-cultural thing anyways.  Hmmm? That reasoning doesn’t sound quite right.

Yes, I am fully aware that the above statistics are the “ABUSES” of alcohol.  But I know you all would agree with me that alcohol has caused a lot of pain and damage in our society.  And I know full well that you will rebuttal my reasoning on this next point, but let me just share my heart with you: It just seems to me that to participate in alcohol consumption yourself, you are condoning, by your actions, the damage that this very same drug does to this country.  Could I logically participate in smoking marijuana for recreational use and then in turn, belabor the moral ills in our society caused by drugs?  Reason would have it, in order for me to address a moral evil (the affects of alcohol and the sin of drunkenness), I would need to completely abstain from that which leads to this evil myself.

Wouldn’t you have to agree that our country would be in much better condition (perhaps none of the above statistics would be true) if alcohol did not even exist?  And yet (I want to be very careful not to offend here), it is my conviction that every time you purchase an alcoholic drink—you are placing your vote in favor of the alcohol industry.

We all agree that what is taking place in our nation due to drinking is tragic.  And I think it also stands to reason that we should do something about it.  Wouldn’t a good first course of action be to cease from drinking alcohol ourselves?  Jack Graham said, “We need to get back to the place where we and realize that alcohol creates instability physically, emotionally and spiritually.  We need to learn to take a stand and not associate with this deadly business because the consequences are so severe.  Drinking on any level is both dangerous and risky.”

It is my conviction that Christians should practice moderation in good things and abstinence in things that may lead to sin.

I have heard numerous personal stories from people I have grown up with that had initially chosen the path of “drinking in moderation” but are now in the bondage of alcohol addiction. 

My intention is not to be arrogant or offensive towards any of you in my convictions (Wendi, I am trying to be on my best behavior here), but (to go back to the original reason for this post) this is why the Southern Baptist Convention has made the stand on the alcohol issue as they have.

Oh, and my answer to the question: “Could Jesus be a Southern Baptist Pastor?”

ABSOLUTELY YES!  We use Welch’s Grape Juice too!  

God bless you, folks!

Why would the Psalmist celebrate the fact that wine “makes the heart glad” if it does nothing different from non-intoxicating liquids?
Alcohol is neither all good nor all bad.  It is dangerous, but when enjoyed in relative moderation is quite good, quite fun, quite enjoyable, and a delightful social lubricant.
Total abstinence is a fantastic idea, since Christianity isn’t about merely avoiding what’s “bad”, but striving after purity, goodness and love in all their forms.  But even John Piper (a hardcore teetotaler if there ever was one) has explicitly argued that alcohol consumption is acceptable for Christians in certain contexts.
For whatever it’s worth.
Cheers,
-Daniel-

Daniel,

The Bible does celebrate the value of unfermented wine.  Here’s something I read a while back ago that deals with your question:

The vineyard, with its products of grape and wine, was vital in Biblical economy
and theology. A look at a concordance suffices to recognize this fact. The word
“wine—yayin,” occurs 141 times in the Old Testament and oinos 30 times in the New
Testament.

In several instances the context indicates that the positive references to “wine”
have to do with unfermented and unintoxicating grape juice. Because of its natural and nourishing properties, grape juice was fittingly used to represent the divine blessing of material prosperity (Gen 27:28; 49:10-11; Deut 33:28), the blessing of the messianic age (Joel 2:18-19; Jer 31:10-12; Amos 9:13, 14), the free offer of God’s saving grace (Is 55:1), the wholesome joy God offers to His people (Ps 104:14-15; 4:7), and the acknowledgment of God through the use of grape juice as tithe, offerings and libations
(Num 18:12; Deut 14:23; Ex 29:40; Lev 23:13).

“Wine” as unfermented grape juice is approved in the Scripture because it provides us with a wholesome and delightful beverage to gladden our hearts without making us “merry.” This thought is expressed in Psalm 104:14-15: “Thou dost cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine [yayin] to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread to strengthen man’s heart.

In this song of thanksgiving the Psalmist enumerates God’s bountiful provisions
for the needs of His creatures. He refers to the plants providing us with food and to
“wine,” the juice of the grape which cheers the heart by its pleasantness. The ideas
contrasted here are sustenance and sweetness. God provides us with sustaining nourishing food, and with a sweet delightful drink, grape juice.
The capacity of grape juice to cheer the heart is attested in Psalm 4:7, which says:
“Thou hast put more joy in my heart than they have when their grain and wine [tirosh]
abound” (cf. Jud 9:13). The word translated “wine” here is tirosh, a term which is explicitly used in numerous Old Testament passages to refer to grape juice. What the Psalmist is saying in this passage is that while the ungodly derive their chief joy from the abundance
of grain and grape juice, the believer experiences an even greater joy when he is the recipient of the light of God’s countenance. The truth expressed in this text is different from that in Psalm 104:14-15, yet it does show that grain and grape juice were commonly viewed as sources of joy. This gives us reason to believe that the “wine” (yayin) mentioned in Psalm 104:15 is the same unfermented “wine” (tirosh=grape juice) of Psalm 4:7, since both passages speak of a natural grape beverage which gladdens human
hearts.

It is important to remember that many ancient people loved sweet drinks. While
today many think of milk and grape juice as babies’ beverages and of coffee and wine as adults’ drinks, in Bible times milk and grape juice were desirable beverages for both young and old. Pliny tells us that sometimes people added a considerable amount of honey to grape juice to make it even sweeter.12 The sweeter a beverage, the more desirable it was. It is worth noting on this regard that the land of Canaan is praised as a land flowing with “milk and honey,” two products known for their sustenance and sweetness.

Yayin, according to ancient rabbinical literature (Bacchiocchi), refers to a variety of wines ranging from freshly squeezed juice to intoxicating drink (which may I remind you is not nearly as strong as the intoxicating drinks we have today).  By my count, the Bible presents yayin in a negative light 60 times; in about 60 more cases it simply mentions it without making any value judgment, and in only 17 references does it possibly say something positive about it.  Coming from a theological viewpoint that there are no contradictions in God’s inerrant Word, we understand that yayin can either be intoxicating or non-intoxicating.

So to review: Shekar is always strong drink, tirosh is always new wine/juice, and yayin may be either intoxicating or not depending upon its context (same as our English word drink). 

The equivalent of what people drink today (in terms of actual alcohol content) is not yayin, not tirosh, but shekar.  And out of the 21 Old Testament texts that mention shekar, 19 strongly condemn it.  (There are allowances for medicinal purposes). 

Interestingly, atheists also point to their misunderstanding of wine as one of their trump cards to prove that the Bible has contradictions.  They point to passages of Scripture and say, “Why is wine condemned in some passages and condoned in others—see there—the Bible has contradictions in it and therefore cannot be the Word of God.” The problem is, they are reading Scripture the same way many Christians do—not understanding that every time Scripture mentions wine it may or may not be intoxicating.

I just think it is absolutely ludicrous for a person to believe that Jesus turned water into an alcoholic substance. Would He who was sinless make a substance poisonous to our bodies? He would never have made a drink that causes people to lose visual acuity, mental acuity, bodily motor control and that leads to ravings, fighting, vomiting, memory-loss, cirrhosis of the liver, black-outs and loss of brain mass? It is unthinkable to suggest that he made alcoholic wine. It says that the people at the wedding ran out of beverage. If they had drunk all the alcohol they had are we to believe that Jesus made 60 gallons more, enabling them to truly become drunk?  They would have been falling down and slurring their speech and passing out. Would the lover of our souls really do that to people? That doesn’t fit with the Jesus I know in the Bible.

I’ve already addressed the Psalm 104 passage in the previous post as well as many of the other Scriptures you’ve brought.  Vick also has a good commentary on Proverbs 23 you may want to take a look at. 

You are correct in your assumption that we will disagree in your belief that “children should be aware that we drink in moderation so that they can see that alcohol can be consumed in a way that does not lead to drunkenness.” Sounds nice but not realistic.  Whatever we tend to do in moderation, our children will tend to do in excess.  I can cite several other examples from the Bible of this principle. 

I had one parent tell me, “I don’t see how I can tell my kids not to drink, especially once they’re teens, if I don’t abstain myself.” She’s got a point.

Let’s just face it.  The Christian who advocates or condones “drinking in moderation” is providing Satan an opening that he would not have with an individual committed to total abstinence. 

You claim that New Testament leaders were not called by God to abstain.  Again, we have the argument of silence here.  What we do know from other writings concurrent with the early church (i.e. The Apostolic Tradition) is that the early Christians of New Testament church used only the non-intoxicating grape juice, paste with water, or fermented grape juice that was heavily diluted with water so as to render it non-intoxicating.
Apparently, Timothy was already an abstainer because he had to be told by Paul that it was ok to have a little bit of oinos for his stomachs sake (medicinal purposes).  And might I note that Paul did not endorse it for recreational use or social drinking.
Furthermore, Leviticus 10 says very clearly that priests were commanded to abstain from wine or intoxicating drink.  They were the ones who went into the presence of the Lord to minister.  If we are saved, our bodies are now the temples of God’s holy presence.  And if drinking alcohol was not acceptable for priests who ministered in His presence, how can I reason that it is acceptable for me as I live in His presence.  And according to 1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 1:6, all born-again Christians have been made priests unto God.” Therefore I believe that the standard of abstinence demanded of the Old Testament priest should be the standard of every Christian today.
You say, “I simply would add that alcohol use is destructive, not the alcohol itself.” You’ve got a point.  And to follow the same line of logic, it is not the marijuana plant itself that is dangerous—it is those people who take that plant and smoke it. I’m sure you would agree with me that smoking marijuana is something no Christian (or any person) should do.  Yet what is the difference in terms of its affects to the human body? 

Then you say, “If we follow this line of thinking, then should we also abstain from money, sex, and a healthy self esteem…people abuse money, should we abstain from money.” Once again, we’re not comparing apples to apples here.  You need money to survive in this world.  You need sex for procreation and to fulfill the need for mutual intimacy in marriage.  You need alcohol for…nothing.  That’s just it.  We don’t need it.  And if you feel as if you do need it, you already have a problem (and I am certainly not saying that you do). What I am saying is that Alcohol is not a necessity for life or good living.

Even in moderation alcohol is a poison. You wouldn’t advocate adultery in moderation, or murder in moderation so why would you advocate taking alcohol in moderation?

Adrian Rogers said, “Moderation is not the cure for the liquor problem. Moderation is the cause of the liquor problem. Becoming an alcoholic does not begin with the last drink, it always begins with the first. Just leave it alone.”

James Merritt wisely says, “It is impossible to be bitten by a snake that you never play with.”

Alcoholism cannot strike unless given the opportunity. That potential becomes real with the first drink one takes.
Also ask these questions:
1. Is it necessary?  Absolutely not.
2. Do we have drinks today that are clean? Do we have a clean water supply?  Yes we do.
3. Is it the best choice?  Given the fact that it is poisoning our body among other reasons—no.
4. Is it habit forming? It certainly can be.  As I’ve said before, medical doctors now say that even a moderate use of alcohol may be beginning the process of the body developing an ethyl alcohol addiction.  You may be able to drink in moderation today, but you may be an alcoholic 5 years from now.
5. Is it potentially destructive?  It certainly can be.
6. Will it offend other Christians?  It certainly will.
7. Will it hurt my Christian testimony?  In the eyes of some, maybe.
8. Is it right?  Based on the previous questions and in light of the evidence—I have come to the conclusion that it is not.
Can you make a biblical case for the liberty to drink an alcoholic beverage? That’s debatable. But can you make a biblical case that it is the wisest thing to do? Sorry but I don’t see it.
IMO, Alcohol is not worth the risk to our testimony, to our leadership credibility, and to our bodies.

Wendi,

You’ve got a good point.  I think I can see how some comments might have come across as arrogant and judgmental.  I apologize.  All throughout this discussion, I have simply wanted someone to take the same evidence that I have presented and come to another logical conclusion.

Blessings to you!