Scott,

I think you may have missed Dave’s point. Dave wrote:

In Matt 11:19, Jesus openly states he “came eating and drinking” and even quotes some folks who accused him of being a drunkard.  That charge would carry no weight if he never touched alcohol. I’m sure the “new wine” argument will be brought into play, but it seems like a stretch to me - who could accuse a grape juice drinker of being drunk?  C’mon now…

I don’t know if you answered this exactly. I think Dave has a point that the context seems to indicate that Jesus drank fermented wine. Would you agree? I think it IS a stretch to say that Jesus didn’t drink wine that was fermented.

Does any other MMI readers see the humor in the use of JM commentary?

Derek

Derek, in those passages you cited where the Bible seems to praise and endorse the drinking of wine, the word “tirosh” for strong drink/unmixed wine is NOT used.  Once again, we’re not comparing apples to apples here.  You will not find any credible scholar that will tell you that the wine of today is always precisely the same as the wine of ancient Biblical times.

I decided to take this issue to my church on Sunday night and so I asked them, “Suppose you were to see me and my wife at lunch today, eating at a restaurant and we were both drinking a beer—how would that make you feel? How would you respond?”

Here are exact quotes from their responses:

“We would lose a lot of respect for you as our pastor.”
“We would look at you as being a hypocrite.”
“We would wonder what else it is you do that is against traditional Christian values”
“We would feel you were setting a very poor example for our church and community”
One guy said, “I would be angry with you knowing that you were participating in the same drug that led to the death of my brother.”

I wanted to press the issue further, so I asked the entire congregation, “How many of you believe that witnessing me drinking alcohol would have a negative affect on how you would view my character.” – Everyone raised their hands.

I then asked, “How many of you believe that me drinking alcohol would have no influence on your perception of me—this issue is totally neutral for you.” Not a single person raised their hand.

Yes, that is just my Southern Baptist church.  Yet before you begin questioning the validity of the thinking of my church members—let’s just suffice it to say that there is a large percentage of people who would feel that a Christian leader’s drinking would be a very serious stumbling block to them.

If you want to believe that the Bible does not specifically prohibit the consumption of alcohol, then it stands to reason that abstinence is the wisest choice based upon Biblical principle.  It has been said that wisdom can be defined as that which fills the gaps between the principles, promises, and commands of God. Wisdom always takes all three into account and then asks, ‘What is the wise thing for me to do?’”

We make many decisions that are based upon the principle of wisdom yet are not supported with a direct command from Scripture. For instance, in the Old Testament they practiced both polygamy and slavery but today we do not. The decision is made not because of a direct prohibition from the Bible but on the principle of wisdom. If you don’t want to believe in abstinence based on Biblically direct prohibition, then shouldn’t you believe in abstinence based upon the principle of wisdom?

Allow me, once again, to reiterate the biblical principles behind the practice of abstinence:

-- It is consistent with the principle of edification (1 Cor. 6:12). Alcohol does not build you up or make you better for Jesus. Avoiding it ensures you will not harm yourself with it. The Bible has so much to say against drunkenness as I have already proven and as you already agree with.  Al Mohler said, “A teetotaler doesn’t have to worry about whether he or she is drinking in excess.” I would rather err on the side of righteousness rather than getting as close to the line of drunkenness that I can without going over.  How much wine is too much wine?  One guy that I talked to about this issue said, “When I was young, I used to try and drink in moderation, but interestingly—I could never tell when I had crossed that line of having a good buzz or becoming lightly drunk.” Read Proverb 20:1 again, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” The word “deceived” in Hebrew means “to reel in” or “to cause to go astray, to mislead.” Just as you would reel in a fish, so the enemy is able to reel in the unsuspecting with alcohol.  I don’t want to take the chance of being “deceived” by alcohol.  Liquor has long been referred to as the “liquid devil” and it is obvious why when you see the devastating affect it has had in the lives of millions of people.  If drinking leads to drunkenness then we should stay as far away from that sin as possible.

-- It is consistent with the principle of refusing that which enslaves (1 Cor. 6:12). Alcohol is a drug that can impair the senses and has a potential addictive element. Most doctors agree that even drinking a glass of alcohol every once in awhile (i.e. drinking in moderation) will start the slow process of building an ethyl alcohol addiction in our bodies.  I have witnessed this personally in the life of my uncle. And over the process of a few years, his “social drinking” and his “drinking in moderation” turned out to be a full alcoholic addiction. 

-- It is consistent with the ethic of love for believers and unbelievers alike.  1 Corinthians 8:13 says, “Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.” May God have mercy on us as Christian leaders who are causing people to fall into alcohol addiction due to our example.  1 Corinthians 10:32 says, “Do not cause anyone to stumble…”. Because I am an example to others, I will make certain no one ever walks the road of sorrow called alcoholism because they saw me take a drink and assumed, “if it is alright for Brandon, it is alright for me.” No, I will choose to set an uncompromising example of abstinence because I love them.

--It is consistent with living a lifestyle of integrity.  Integrity is who you are when nobody else is looking.  If you say, “Well, I don’t drink in public so I won’t be a stumbling block to someone…I’ll just drink in the privacy of my own home or when I am out of town.” What kind of message is that sending by the way you live your life?  You are behaving one way at home and another when with your church.  If you are a pastor, how would one of your members feel if they saw a bottle of chardonnay in your fridge?  Pastors, if you wouldn’t feel comfortable drinking a beer at your church potluck, then you shouldn’t feel comfortable drinking a beer at the ball game.  I also believe those parents who drink only a little are setting a bad example that will lead their children astray. The parents who drink only a glass after a meal influence their children or others who many not be able to drink only one glass. As parents, what you do in moderation, your children will have a tendency to do in excess (we also see that pattern repeatedly in Scripture).

-- I will seek my joy and filling in the Spirit not in alcohol. I love the Phillips translation of Ephesians 5:18 which reads, “Don’t get your stimulus from wine (for there is always the danger of excessive drinking), but let the Spirit stimulate your souls.” When you drink alcohol, the substance of that drug controls your thinking, your speech, and your actions.  However, when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, HE controls your thinking, your speech, and your actions.

Folks, I’ve really enjoyed our discussion.  The Bible says “As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.” I’m going to use that Scripture to “proof-text” my opinion that you all have helped to sharpen and solidify my beliefs and convictions regarding this issue.  Blessings to you all!

Brandon,

You’re not alone.  I absolutely agree with you and thank you for being willing to take a stand that has somehow become so unpopular today!

To my moderation brethren, all I’d add is a rhetorical question:  If it’s really ‘no big deal’ or ‘not important’ then why is there so much resistance in choosing abstinence - even if just to be cautious or safe?

Derek,

I think everything you wrote in your response to me is a valid, defenseable and reasonable viewpoint.  Nevertheless, I would respectfully still take it a step further than you. 

1.) Re: your comment about “eating meat sacrificed to idols.” The problem, in my opinion, is that in our time and culture the imbibing of alcohol is equivalent to “eating meat sacrificed to idols.” While I recognize individual exceptions, I don’t think it can generally be denied that alcohol has become a near-universally worshiped idol of our day.  It is for many, an important and regular source they eagerly (sometimes desperately, and as one earlier blogger confesses “red wine is a must")seek it out to find peace, calm, serenity, courage, relaxation, strength, etc. 

2.) Re: judging.  Certainly we cannot replace or usurp God in His place as ultimate Judge.  Yet, does the Bible not also instruct us to hold one another accountable, teach and share wisdom and self-control, warn one another of potential danger, keep one another from even the “appearance” of evil, etc.?

Bottom line:  I agree with the concern for not being hasty in making our own ‘law.’ Similarly, I am not willing to go quite as far as to teach/preach or insist that abstinence from alcohol is a clearly defined law of God for all believers today.  Yet, I’m also not completely confident or comfortable in believing that Christ either condones or is pleased with Christians who partake of alcohol.  I would suggest that there is not and cannot be absolute certainty on either side here.  So, if we’re to take even a small risk in discerning Christ’s will here, is it not best and wisest to risk on the side of abstinence.  Apply Pascal’s theorem here.  If we all abstain only to find out in glory that we didn’t have to, does it really matter?  But if we imbibe (even moderately), only to discover in glory that this displeased Christ, would it have been worth it (even in light of His forgiving grace)?

It may not be “law” and certainly isn’t an issue of salvation, but I strongly believe it is a legitimate sign of one’s spiritual maturity and willingness to sacrifice for Christ.  And, if as Christians we are charged by Christ to be used of Him to help others grow in spiritual maturity (as He most certainly has), then isn’t it only appropriate (even obligatory) for us to teach and encourage others of “a better way”?

PT & Brandon,

I am so happy that when are all in God’s family, because we certain do need each other to sharpen one another and push each other to be more like Jesus.

The issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols is the best biblical anology that I can find to our current issue. I agree that alcohol has become and idol for some (but not all). To drink alcohol doesn’t make you a worshipper of alcohol anymore than spending money makes you a worshipper of money.

Paul’s point in Roman 14 over the issue of eating meat sacrificed is very postmodern...it is premodern actually. The point is that when it comes to eating (and may we infer drinking aswell) nothing is unclean in itself, but if a person feels convicted that eating certain meat (or drinking certain drinks) is a sin then it is a sin.

The point for me is that there are those who will find wine-drinking and sin and will thus abstain. Also there are those who will find wine-drinking not and sin and thus they will drink. Who is right? They both are. Isn’t that Paul’s premodern point in Romans 14? The kingdom of God—of which we are servants and messagers—isn’t really about eating and drinking. On these issues we may disagree. The essence of the kingdom is righteousness, peace and joy in the HS. On this we agree.

It is good for brothers like us to disagree with one another and still maintain the love and respect that we have shown each other.

Cheers!

Derek

The reason, Brandon, that I accused you of being inflammatory and divisive is that you not only impose your personal convictions and interpretation of a disputable issue on all of us, you disparage us for coming to a different conclusion on a matter about which scripture gives us freedom.  In your posts, when referring to those of us who partake, I’ve read words and phrases like; hypocrite, poor example, lacking character and integrity, not living above reproach (which implies living a reproachable life).  I’m not quite sure how you think you can claim saying those things about a fellow Christian is not inflammatory.

If we lived in the first century, I think you’d be on a soap box saying, “no Christian leader should ever eat meat offered to idols, and those who do are hypocrites who lack integrity, show poor Christian character and will surely cause every Jewish brother to stumble.”

You agree with me that this isn’t an essential of our faith, but then claim that it is “essential” to Christian character and high moral standards.  Brandon – you are the one who has made this essential, scripture has not.  For heaven sake, if we lived in Europe, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion, because there, among sound Christians of great integrity and high moral character, almost no one abstains. 

It might surprise you to know that I come from an alcoholic family myself, and have a sister who is a recovering addict.  She is fully aware that I drink wine and that we are in the wine industry as growers.  Her knowledge of my preferences and our family business in no way causes her to stumble.  She also knows that we are very cautious and avoid drunkenness.  This actually enables her to know that it is possible to enjoy alcohol responsibly without abuse or addiction.  In a way, we are an example of “good” behavior.  In fact, it was my husband’s 4th BD party, where wine was served, that influenced the beginnings of her road to recovery.  I’ve heard her say numerous times, “we couldn’t believe that people were drinking wine and no one was drunk.  We’ve never experienced such a thing.” However, if I, now knowing her sensitivities and liabilities, insisted on serving wine when she came to dinner or ordering a glass when we are out together, it surely might cause her to stumble.  At the very least, doing so would be disrespectful.  I submit my freedom to my love for her.  Love always trumps freedom.  That is what Paul was talking about. 

You have freedom to choose in this matter, and so do I.  Respecting each other’s freedom in Christ is loving.  But you are, I’m afraid, attempting to usurp the freedom of Christian brothers and sisters by impugning our character and that is exactly what Paul spoke against.  I respect and appreciate your passion.  I appreciate that you’ve found scripture to counsel abstinence.  That being the case, for you to partake is indeed sin.  For me it is not.  For that reason I would respectfully ask that you resist comments that imply we are “sinning” for simply disagreeing with you.

Wendi

I agree that this discussion has been handled with courtesy and goodwill, especially compared to some threads we’ve seen here.  However, it could be argued that Brandon’s mind is so made up that he hasn’t let some comments sink in.  For example, Brandon is shocked that Wendi takes the moderation position even though her sister has had a problem with abusing alcohol.  Maybe it would be worth considering her point… after all, she is coming from a position of experience, and as a believer, is also guided by the Spirit.  It is possible to learn from her.

I also find it interesting that no one has responded to my comments about Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians… why does he not forbid their use of fermented wine?

Also, why do his instructions regarding church leadership limit, but not forbid alcohol?  As I said, limiting something presupposes a certain amount - in effect, the limit inherently permits and allows any amount up to, or within the limit.

Brandon’s congregation could be expected to take the position they did because it’s Brandon’s congregation.  Maybe they’ve been taught (by Brandon) that alcohol consumption is wrong.  If so, then of course it would be hypocrisy for him to drink, but other church leaders have not taken this position, so they can drink without hypocrisy.  One congregation’s (or individual’s) CULTURAL identity and values cannot necessarily be projected onto another congregation.  And at the end of the day, I think this is precisely a cultural issue.  The historically fundamentalist American Christian subculture is just that - a subculture - one of many within the church.  This same group used to oppose playing cards, going to movies, even playing children’s board games that use dice, but most have lightened up on these issues.  The subculture has changed.  I think we’re seeing that change begin to encompass the area of alcohol in moderation.

Dave

In a previous post, Brandon said, “I challenge anyone to show me the superior wisdom of drinking “in moderation,” as opposed to not drinking at all.” This discussion has been going on for quite a while now, and interestingly--nobody has been able to meet, in a logical way, Brandon’s challenge.

I took some debate courses in college and if this were a formal debate, I would have to say that the winner would have to be Brandon.  His arguments are logical, they’re reasonable, and they show the highest wisdom.

Here’s some more food for thought: What is worse, a Christian drinking alcohol or a Christian smoking a cigarrette?  We all know Christians who do both and both are damaging to the body.  Yet, alcohol is a mind-altering drug. Even when drunk in moderation, it still alters the mind and kills brain cells.  There are untold millions of people whose lives have been ruined by this.  We need to just stay away from the stuff!

Brandon,

You and I are both well over our 5-post MMI limit, but I encourage you to read over you posts.  You will see that the comments made by your church members were also made by you early on.

There is no need to continue decrying the evils of alcohol or citing scripture to make your case for abstinence, you’ve done that quite well.  There is also no need to explain the recovery company line, I know full well that “once an alcoholic always an alcoholic.” My background and experience provides me with at least as much knowledge of the disease as you have.  I wasn’t implying that my sister can ever again drink alcohol, just that it’s healthy for her to understand that not everyone who consumes alcohol abuses it.

You claim that it is your “love” and concern for me that causes you to tell me the correct and only way to apply scripture on a disputable issue, one that has been disputed for thousands of years. Please also read through the posts and evaluate the posture of we “moderation” posters.  None of us has challenged your interpretation of scripture or implied that you are “bad” or even “wrong” in your interpretation.  We’ve just established how we come to a different position, through the same careful evaluation of scripture you’ve undertaken.  However, your posture is to claim that your “love” has caused you to decide for me and all others how we must live out our liberty in Christ.  I’m thinking that is exactly the excuse the Corinthian leaders had who were imposing the “don’t eat meat offered to idols” rules onto every Christian in Corinth (ch. 8).  But Paul didn’t admonish the meat eaters, he admonished the rule makers.  He said, (my paraphrase), “If it bothers you, don’t do it. If it doesn’t, don’t sweat it. Either way, don’t judge.” IMO, you’ve missed Paul’s point because you are judging.

There is a big difference between causing a weaker brother to stumble and causing a prideful brother to judge.  Simply seeing me in a restaurant with a glass of wine isn’t going to cause someone to become an alcoholic, the suggestion is unsupportable and ridiculous.  However, seeing me in a restaurant might cause a prideful Christian to look down their noses, puff themselves up because they decide they are so much more “above reproach” then me.  This is the kind of thing that the Pharisees did to Jesus all the time.

Wendi

Brandon –

I should (and will) be done here . . . . but perhaps your last sentence will help you understand my point.

You said [But yet it stands to reason that even if I weren’t a Christian and even if we did not have Biblical principles I would still argue that abstaining from the drug of alcohol is still the wisest thing to do.] Good comment, fully appropriate and one that we’d all say “here here” to.  You are explaining your conviction and why you do (or don’t do) what you do.

But then you say, [An honest and unbiased look at the evidence should lead anyone to reach that same conclusion.] Here is where you cross the line. 

You imply that only you have an honest and unbiased look at the evidence.  You state that you have come to the right conclusion and we have come to the wrong conclusion.  Frankly, here is where you become arrogant (because you imply that you are the only one among us smart enough to have come to the right conclusions) and judgmental (because you accuse us of being neither honest nor unbiased).

I think that if you’d stick to explaining what you believe and refrain from telling everyone else what they should and must believe (in order to be above reproach, have integrity, be honest, etc. etc.), then you might even find you can win a few more over.

Out - Wendi

Brandon writes [However, if you were to do unbiased research on this subject and pick 100 books by credible Bible scholars who are familiar with Greek and Hebrew language as well as ancient Greco-Roman culture—you would find that nearly ALL of them come to the same conclusion as I do regarding this issue...I would go so far as to say that 90% of them agree with the viewpoint that I have presented and that would certainly be a conservative number.]

Brandon,

With all due respect, I’m doubtin’ it, especially the very tail end of that statement.

Man, are you guys STILL talking about this?!

Todd

Todd,

I think we are about done. I think everyone has said all that needs to be said (multiple times). Although, if we keep it up, we may hit 100 posts!

Derek