Judy I am not trying to argue with you.  I am listening to your link, but it has nothing to do with gossip on the web.  But you are not giving me any answer from the bible.  The point of this blog here was to discuss if it is okay to air the laundry of pastor’s personal lives and churches laundry in a public forum.  It is not about ccabq but the rightness of blogging someone’s sin.  Why in your mind is it okay to gossip on the web? 

Leonard

Judy,

2 Corinthians 5:20 is taken out of context. Not about pastors per se at all.

Let’s all leave it at this before Todd starts blocking people from the forum.

These are all good questions which have been asked here and, as PP poster put it, this genie’s not going back in the bottle.

The entire church is eventually going to have to deal with the issue of blogs, and criticism, and what is appropriate and inappropriate regarding discussing a pastor and/or church leader’s sins in a public forum.

I personally don’t like it when someone hijacks a thread, but I believe Judy means the very best, even if she won’t back down from a discussion I do like her taking up for those who have been abused in some way by church leadership. Because those people don’t have a voice. Pastors have a voice, leaders have a voice. But when Jane Doe is kicked out of her choir without explanation, her husband loses his pastoral job without explanation, or God forbid, one of their daughters is sexually abused by her youth pastor....it can be swept under the rug, or someone can throw up Matthew 18 at them, or they’re shunned by the leadership and, in turn, by their church.

Phoenix Preacher has tried to help these people, and is also trying to address the concerns of its critics, who range from lunatic ranters to Calvary Chapel pastors. Helping victims does not excuse PP from conducting its business in a Christ-like manner. It does not excuse those who represent PP from acting Christ-like when on another message board. The concerns of its critics are well-taken, even if the rational people will be heard more than the ones who seem to want to scream and make accusations of their own.

I have no idea if the Bellevue Baptist folks knew of PP before starting their two websites. If so, then people outside of CC are definitely watching this site. And it is imperative that people who operate such blogs do so as if they were working for and representing Christ himself, and accountable to Christ Himself. Not so much to the lunatic fringe, not to the critics, not even to the pastors. Especially not in situations where there is legitimate wrongdoing in a church and the leadership tries to cover it up, or sends the message to the congregation ‘we’re going to do whatever we want, and the only thing you can do is shut up and keep giving.’

Perhaps, Phoenix Preacher will shut down, and some people will be delirious with delight on that day. But the next PP will arise, hopefully having learned from the former’s mistakes, and it might be discussing Calvary Chapel, it might discuss the Southern Baptists, or the PCUSA, or Willow Creek, or Saddleback, or the word-faith movement....may they never be blogs which slam men and women of God for sport. May they be sites run by Godly men and women who wish the best for His servants and His people, and go online to encourage holiness and Godliness among His people.

Wow, Todd, excellent blog orchestration.

You posted a story and questions, and then managed to get many excellent examples of what the story was talking about.

This goes back to your article about two problems in every church:

http://mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/the_two_problems_many_churches_face/

If you don’t address the issues, things like this will happen (blog criticism).  Church leaders and ministers should strive to be beyond reproach.  Some don’t care, and these are the natural consequences.

...Bernie

Ann and Tale bearer,

I’ll tell you up front I don’t have the time to engage in a shouting match on this or any other thread. I have too much to do in the real world to argue about this. I really didn’t come here looking for a debate with either of you....I came on here because I wanted to help give this corner of the blog world a balanced picture of what Phoenix Preacher is all about.

Everyone,

I wish Judy had put the brakes on and not gotten some of you unnecessarily stirred up, but I am convinced her heart is in the right place and she cares about people who have been abused in some manner in church. Her methods may be unique to her, and I would not come here looking for a fight. But I share her heart for these abused people and believe that someone needs to stand up for familly - the sad thing is when it’s someone from outside the church, because no one INSIDE the church will do a thing to help their brother or sister.

How many of us actually can say we truly care about our brothers and sisters? A lot of us do - but are we giving lip service to the concept or living it out?

It seems that Ann and Tale bearer have their minds set on this manner, and to engage in debate with them to change their minds is futile. I did not come here to debate, and I want to insist that PP is made up of different people who want to make a positive difference not just in the lives of hurting people and not just in the lives of the Calvary Chapels some of us attend (!), but in the lives of the non-Calvaries some of us attend and, to serve our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pray for PP, that God would direct those who lead it and participate in it to not gossip, not unnecessarily offend our brothers and sisters, but to glorify Jesus in all that we do. It is a process, and I believe the Lord is leading us in the right direction.

Todd,

Once again I am sorry this has become a thread about Phoenix Preacher. There is plenty of discussion I would imagine in regards to the two Bellevue websites and the one in Coffeyville, Texas. Others will discuss what they will.

Everyone,

Do pray for us.

Watching and Reading ... there was no craftiness behind the question and I think you completely missed the point of the question.  My question was not, is blogging unbiblical?  I’m quite well aware that your list of items is not in the Bible… my question was about the biblical way to use such modern techology etc.  I just think gossip and so-called ‘venting’ is unbiblical. Obviously i don’t think blogging is wrong in and of itself or I wouldn’t be here!
BrianD - as it happens (and especially my last post) was very generic and not pointed at PP necessarily.  I’m very aware of the content of that site and have never out-right condemned it.  I know there a LOT of very well-meaning people who contribute there who genuinely care about one another, and not that I can think of any of your posts off the top of my head, I don’t remember you ever being one of the more aggressive and name-calling ones.  But I think you’ll agree some people there are.
I really don’t have the time to sit and list the ways conflict in the church should be handled and I’m sure I wouldn’t be educating any one here - most of you are Bible scholars and you know what the Bibles says.  Look if Matt. 18 doesn’t work and with confronting another leader many times it won’t because of their position (I’m not saying that’s right) - I just think you need to leave!  I know that’s not a popular stance and I’ve heard all the arguments as to why you should stick around and stand up for your rights!  What rights?  We don’t have any rights - we laid those down when we accepted Christ.  He is our Defender.
Look if you suspect illegal things going on then go to the authorities.  If you suspect wrong -doing with the church accounting ask to see the books - I know Calvary leadership doesn’t always like that (again I’m not saying that’s right) but they will show you if you ask, legally they have to.
It’s sad we ever have to have this discussion because all people claiming Christ should live to a biblical standard especially the pastor but unfortunately it is a reality.  I would choose to deal with it in a certain way and perhaps you would choose another.  I can say in all honesty the last thing I would do is get on a blog and bad-mouth my pastor; I don’t care if I feel he has wronged me or not.  You may be shocked to find that I don’t always agree with my pastor and sometimes I shake my head at some of his decisions but I’ve been at the same church for 17 years and choose to submit to his authority.  For now God is keeping me here and I’m happy to be here.  There is no perfect church or pastor and if I ever find it I better leave because I’ll just spoil it. Blessings to you all for a great weekend!

It is true those words you mentioned are not int he bible but words like gossip, slander, self-control forginess, are all mentioned.  These are exactly the standards the bible applies to all parts of our lives.  When someone says, “I am entitled to my opinion” and then gossips wheter by blog or in person, then they are no longer biblically entitled, they are in sin.  Sure it is sad about CCABQ but the point is that people cangossip, stir strife, enflame hearts negativly without accountability. 

We argue, hold those pastors accountable.  Who holds the gossiping blogger accountable?  I do not know the answer except to confront gossip when we see it, refuse to entertain it and keep pushing people back to scripture.  That is why I keep asking Judy and anyone else what does scripture say.  No need to be clever and focus on the missing words of scripture as that was not my question.  My questions still stands, how do we justfy gossiping on a blog when God’s wors says not to gossip?  Just wondering out loud but I also am not yealling or even typing hard.

• Posted by Bernie Dehler of FreeGoodNews.com
Friday, October 06, 2006 at 12:05 PM
“If you don’t address the issues, things like this will happen (blog criticism).  Church leaders and ministers should strive to be beyond reproach.  Some don’t care, and these are the natural consequences. “
Bernie, you are absolutely right that leaders and ministers should strive to be beyond reproach, and indeed some don’t care. But I would take exception with your idea that these (and I take it you mean blogs) are the natural consequences.

The sin and shortcomings of leaders is never an excuse for laity to step outside of God’s written word and visa versa, whether it seems natural or not. Many of these bloggers do not understand how dangerous it is when they justify their “venting” in order to see their brand of justice, and even more dangerous when they put it on the WORLD WIDE WEB for the saved, unsaved, and every other kind of seeker to see. If you cause one of the least of these to stumble…it’s the mill stone for you!”

Can anyone imagine, would anyone tolerate for one second a group of pastors who got on blogs and spoke openly, naming names and places of the sins of the people in their flocks AND other flocks? There would all out chaos in the church. Why is it fair for laity to openly take leaders to task in a public forum in which they have no personal contact or relationship with that leader. And even it they do, it still is unacceptable.

Want to have a decent conversation about sin in the church, among leaders IN GENERAL terms, absolutely. But to make it so personal that a man’s wife and children are mutilated by bitter angry people in open forum blogs……let not be so Lord.

But because they can sit behind a moniker and take shots at those who seem to be in a glass house, they do. And they are wrong. I hope they repent before it’s too late.

We should not accept the natural but look to the supernatural.

Dan

So is this the attack Phoenix Preacher thread now? Are you people not as obnoxious in your own way as you accuse Judy Robinson and Phoenix Preacher of being?

Seems to me, you could care less about the real topic of this blog - the situation with the Memphis church and the church in Texas. Your sole agenda is to make this Judy Robinson answer your questions, and to tell the world that this Phoenix Preacher blog is evil and sinful, and you’ve made it clear by your actions you don’t care if you’ve hijacked this thread or not.

Maybe I’ll check it out and see it for myself. You people seem too biased for me to trust what you have to say. I’d encourage every other reader to do the same.

Joe,

You may just have a point there. And it proves how ridiculous and foolish these blogs are just by their nature. They can be used by angry people to vent to the world thier frustrations. They can be used by bitter people who don’t ever seem to get over it. They can be used by people like me who take exception with people that want to tear down the church I go to. all reasons why this mode of communication can never be taken serious when church problems, discipline, and accountability are concerned.

They have a tendancy to polarize people into the for and against mode, the us vs. them thing. If the church I go to wanted to put one of these things up on thier site, I’d certainly vote NO!

Please forgive me if I over stepped the bounds of criticism and insulted your intelligence by assuming that you can’t make up your own mind about PP and it’s proponents. Judy and Laura and the PP don’t need my help in proving how worthles thier cause is, they can do that all by themselves.

Dan

UGH! This is crazy talk to me. Just leave, move on if you are not happy at your church insted of talking about the pastor. Pray God will convict him if you feel he is in sin and then let it go, Geez- La-weeze people there are plenty of great churches you can go too without being hell bent on taking down the one you are leaving!

I hope people remember that blogs can be very much one sided. I checked out the blog of a youth pastor whom we fired a few years ago. He tells about how he was fired because of his pursuit of a deeper spirituality, and how our unhealthy church environment would not allow him to grow. What he didn’t tell in the blog was that we offered him the opportunity to continue his growth in another paid position within our church. We recognized the validity of his search, we just couldn’t continue to allow it to hamper our youth ministry (which doubled in size within weeks, under volunteer leadership).